[TOareaFan]

Seems like odd reasoning. Ontario gets tax money from beer sold in the beer store, it doesn't matter where it's sold in this case. Looser liquor laws would increase sales and thus increase tax revenue.

competition, so I am told, reduces prices.....lower prices mean lower taxes. The simplest way to guarantee/ensure gov't revenue goes up is to maintain current system but charge TBS an annual franchise fee for the rights they currently have.

 

[ShonTron]

I am no great fan of the current provincial government but I have to take exception to the part of your post that I bolded. In this case she appears to be doing precisely the opposite. Over the past few years, making beer and wine more accessible in more places has taken on a heightened importance with the electorate. It is the populist issue of the day in Ontario. If she were only concerned with staying in power, the decision would seem quite easy. I think what she is primarily concerned, in this case, with maintaining (perhaps even increasing) the amount of money the treasury gets from the sale of beer and alcohol......in fact her panel on this was very clear that they suggested ways to increase those revenues.....and finding a way to squeeze some sort of annual fee from TBS might be the way to do that.....but it won't win many votes!

More like maintaining (perhaps even increasing) the amount of money the Liberal Party gets from the beer industry.

 

[TOareaFan]

More like maintaining (perhaps even increasing) the amount of money the Liberal Party gets from the beer industry.

Can't tell if you are kidding or not....in case you are not it should be pointed out that the amount they (or any other party) get from the beer industry (or any other industry) or any individuals is strictly limited by campaign finance legislation.

 

[jozl]

Can't tell if you are kidding or not....in case you are not it should be pointed out that the amount they (or any other party) get from the beer industry (or any other industry) or any individuals is strictly limited by campaign finance legislation.

A Toronto Star tabulation shows more than $525,000 was donated to the three major political parties by The Beer Store, its foreign owners and the union representing beer industry employees in 2013 and 2014. That windfall contrasts sharply with the federal political scene, where any donations by corporations and unions are prohibited by law.

 

[TOareaFan]

A Toronto Star tabulation shows more than $525,000 was donated to the three major political parties by The Beer Store, its foreign owners and the union representing beer industry employees in 2013 and 2014. That windfall contrasts sharply with the federal political scene, where any donations by corporations and unions are prohibited by law.

sure....there are different election financing laws provincially and federally. since, however, there are strict limits placed on the amounts that any one party can receive from each company, union or person......it is not clear to me how the Liberal party of Ontario benefits any more than the PC party or the NDP. I think those donations, as you said, are spread out over the 3 parties.

 

[jozl]

A pole I read about recently indicated that 67 percent of respondents in Ontario approved of the sale of beer in corner stores and or supermarkets. I can only conclude, given the governments intragagence on the topic literally after decades of discussion, that the liberal government is addicted to The Beer Store payola and will screw consumers to keep the donations rolling in. Job one is "stay in power". Job two is...well, there doesn't seem to be a job two.

 

[jozl]

sure....there are different election financing laws provincially and federally. since, however, there are strict limits placed on the amounts that any one party can receive from each company, union or person......it is not clear to me how the Liberal party of Ontario benefits any more than the PC party or the NDP. I think those donations, as you said, are spread out over the 3 parties.

Yes, you are correct. TBS bribes all provincial parties not just the Liberals. TBS has long tentacles.

 

[TOareaFan]

A pole I read about recently indicated that 67 percent of respondents in Ontario approved of the sale of beer in corner stores and or supermarkets. I can only conclude, given the governments intragagence on the topic literally after decades of discussion, that the liberal government is addicted to The Beer Store payola and will screw consumers to keep the donations rolling in. Job one is "stay in power". Job two is...well, there doesn't seem to be a job two.

I think the conclusion you should reach is that Ontario (not just Liberal Ontario) is addicted to Beer and Alcohol revenues....along with gambling revenues.

Re the bolded parts....again I need help in understanding how not passing something that, seemingly, 67% of Ontarians approve of leads to getting/staying in power?

It is a Provincial treasury issue....plain and simple...if this (or any) provincial government thought selling beer/wine/vodka in different outlets would lead to more revenue.....they would find a way to do it. As it is, the panel they put together to study the matter came up with the idea of charging a franchise fee to TBS and having the LCBO leverage their buying power to lower their costs.....not to reduce the price or increase convenience.....but to increase the province's take from booze....plain and simple.

 

[W. K. Lis]

competition, so I am told, reduces prices.....lower prices mean lower taxes. The simplest way to guarantee/ensure gov't revenue goes up is to maintain current system but charge TBS an annual franchise fee for the rights they currently have.

Not with the price controls by the province on alcohol.

 

[ShonTron]

Not with the price controls by the province on alcohol.

Yep. Opening up sales of beer and wine to corner stores and supermarkets won't lower prices, at least not by much. Excise taxes, minimum pricing and retail mark-ups will make sure the government won't see less revenue by liberalizing sales of beer and wine.

 

[spider]

A few thoughts,

What is the retail/wholesale price structure in the beer market, anyone know? There must be one.

Are non beer drinkers excluded from polling numbers? Should they be as they have no horse in the race?

Wouldn't the optimal competitor to the Beer Store be a purpose built beer store that also sells related goods and supplies as opposed to the typical Mom & Pop shop that is jammed as it is with anything they can possibly sell in order to scratch out a living now being required to drastically revamp their premises to be able to sell a few products and handle empties?

I would like the little guys to be offered the opportunity to sell beer if they wish but would their limited space and resources really be able to offer the diversity of products that are lacking now in the Beer Store. Corner stores may not be the answer.

 

[rbt]

Views on public and private monopolies aside, I'd hate to end up in the same situation as Alberta where they have a private system that allows them to sell in grocery stores, but has also given them higher prices than we have.

The retail end will depend on significant volume to keep prices down.

If you assume manufacturers will charge the retails the same rate as they receive today, and that the beer store really is not-for-profit and efficient (it's almost certainly extremely efficient), then prices will go up OR quality will plummet.


I've found across numerous states and provinces that many retailers have a huge problem with sour wine (it's been on the shelf too long) which I rarely encounter with LCBO stuff. Large retailers (Safeway, Wallgreens, etc.) are as reliable as LCBO but often with less selection but pricing is state dependent. Small retailers are almost always problematic unless you ask what is popular (moving off the shelves).

I've bought between 400 and 500 bottles of wine outside Ontario but within North America over the last decade, everywhere from Alaska to Puerto Rico.

 

[P23]

Are non beer drinkers excluded from polling numbers? Should they be as they have no horse in the race?

the shrill "think of the children" type groups would likely take issue with that

 

[Tewder]

competition, so I am told, reduces prices.....lower prices mean lower taxes. The simplest way to guarantee/ensure gov't revenue goes up is to maintain current system but charge TBS an annual franchise fee for the rights they currently have.

These are ill-gotten gains, pure and simple. It is the most base and insidious form of justification for unethical practices. Raise taxes if required/appropriate but it is not ok to mislead and gouge the consumer public, it's a very bad precedent.

It is a Provincial treasury issue....plain and simple...if this (or any) provincial government thought selling beer/wine/vodka in different outlets would lead to more revenue.....they would find a way to do it. As it is, the panel they put together to study the matter came up with the idea of charging a franchise fee to TBS and having the LCBO leverage their buying power to lower their costs.....not to reduce the price or increase convenience.....but to increase the province's take from booze....plain and simple.

Encouraging alcoholism would create more revenue too, no? We do have a Competition Act, it should be a legal/constitutional issue:

In Canada, like other major jurisdictions including the EU and the United States, the three major areas of competition law are: (i) conspiracy (i.e., cartels), (ii) mergers (i.e., merger control) and (iii) abuse of dominance (i.e., monopolization).
Generally speaking, under section 79 of the federal Competition Act (the “Actâ€), abuse of dominance occurs when a dominant firm (or firms) engages in a practice of anti-competitive acts that results in a prevention or substantial lessening of competition.

http://www.ipvancouverblog.com/canadiancompetitionlaw-abuseofdominance/

Wouldn't the optimal competitor to the Beer Store be a purpose built beer store that also sells related goods and supplies as opposed to the typical Mom & Pop shop that is jammed as it is with anything they can possibly sell in order to scratch out a living now being required to drastically revamp their premises to be able to sell a few products and handle empties?

The market system would decide who sells alcohol (within a legal framework of course). A stand-alone retail location may be highly feasible in some contexts, as a corner store might be in others.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The province of Ontario sells GM shares for $1.1B

See link.

How much would one of The Beer Store breweries go for these days? Would $1.1B do, and leave some change? Should Ontario buy a brewery and become part-owner of The Beer Store?

Nah!

Not if the province could buy a supermarket chain, and turn around and sell the beer there.