BurlOak
Senior Member
Makes sense. Should the Lakeshore rush hour fast track go to Hamilton or Niagara?
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- Thread starter M II A II R II K
- Start date
Makes sense. Should the Lakeshore rush hour fast track go to Hamilton or Niagara?
Personally, I think it should go into Hamilton Centre. The number of commuters from the Niagara Region into Toronto is pretty low, so I figured just having the all-day shuttle service into Aldershot would be enough to satisfy that demand. If there ends up being a lot more ridership from Niagara into Hamilton, then the frequency of the shuttle service can be boosted. Not to mention, from Niagara into Union would be a ridiculously long train ride, haha. For the few people that actually will be doing that commute, catching a train at Aldershot during the AM peak shouldn't be that big of an issue.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
What about running a subway system with OTrain type vehicles along the current GO corridors for Toronto travel only?
The GO network would be completely 905 service and all trains GO train stops once entering the city {mostly the first station} be for drop off and anyone from GO wanting to transfer onto the Toronto system does so there and after that everything is a Union express.
As an example the only GO train stations in the city of Toronto would be Miminco, Etobicko North, York U, Agincourt, Guilwood, Oriole, Kipling, and, of course Union. Toronto could electrify the system {except the Barrie line which really doesn't serve any of Toronto as it just runs parallel to Spadina} and run OTrain type trains with frequency of about every 8 minutes all day and 6 minutes in rush hour. When the lines begin to merge the closer you get to Union the better the service will be.
Most of the system already has complete grade separation so eventually all segment could be grade separated and it could be run automatically. This would nearly triple the size of the Toronto subway system at a small fraction of the cost. The entire system could be up and running for the $2 billion to be spent on Finch and Sheppard.
This is EXACTLY what Sao Paulo is doing with some of it's old commuter lines. They are electrifying the system, bringing service up to subway frequency, and adding more stations within the inner city itself and they are becoming part of the standard Metro system.
The GO network would be completely 905 service and all trains GO train stops once entering the city {mostly the first station} be for drop off and anyone from GO wanting to transfer onto the Toronto system does so there and after that everything is a Union express.
As an example the only GO train stations in the city of Toronto would be Miminco, Etobicko North, York U, Agincourt, Guilwood, Oriole, Kipling, and, of course Union. Toronto could electrify the system {except the Barrie line which really doesn't serve any of Toronto as it just runs parallel to Spadina} and run OTrain type trains with frequency of about every 8 minutes all day and 6 minutes in rush hour. When the lines begin to merge the closer you get to Union the better the service will be.
Most of the system already has complete grade separation so eventually all segment could be grade separated and it could be run automatically. This would nearly triple the size of the Toronto subway system at a small fraction of the cost. The entire system could be up and running for the $2 billion to be spent on Finch and Sheppard.
This is EXACTLY what Sao Paulo is doing with some of it's old commuter lines. They are electrifying the system, bringing service up to subway frequency, and adding more stations within the inner city itself and they are becoming part of the standard Metro system.
But what's the point of having the TTC run a completely separate system, when GO could accomplish the exact same thing, for less of a cost, using the same fleet of vehicles and a unified fare system? Your entire idea is predicated on the idea that the TTC is and always should be a completely separate entity with it's own fare structure, and that's simply not going to be the case.
The O-Train doesn't really have that big of a capacity. Even during rush hour, it carries a fraction of what the Transitway does. I'd much rather see S-Bahn style EMUs running along GO corridors than Bombardier Talent-like vehicles.
And besides, the basic system that you're describing (a separate system for Toronto only) is already in my GO REX scheme, as the Lakeshore Toronto and Pearson-Unionville GO REXes. They only extend just beyond the borders of the city of Toronto, and essentially provide subway-level service for Toronto, because they overlay on top of longer, more regional lines. The only difference is that they're running the same vehicles as the rest of the GO REX system, and they function on the same integrated fare system that the rest of the GTHA would.
So I really don't think there's a need for the TTC to run those 'overlapping' GO REX lines, in whatever form they may take. GO is perfectly capable of handling them, given the right fare structure and station locations.
Just look at the Berlin S-Bahn (http://www.noordinaryhomestead.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/berlin_s_u-bahn-map.jpg), there are quite a few S-Bahn routes that have single digit numbers that run way out into the suburbs, with double digit numbers that run a parallel route through the core, and then either terminate well before the end of the line, or form a small spur and then terminate. This results in lower frequencies the further you get out, but subway level service through most of Berlin proper, because of the overlapping of multiple routes.
The entire system (which includes the U-Bahn) is under a single fare system. If you're in Berlin proper, it makes little difference whether you take the S-Bahn or the U-Bahn to get your destination, because they both have similar frequencies and the same fare. It's just a matter of which is more convenient for your trip pattern. It's this type of system that I want for Toronto and the GTHA, not some fragmented system where you have 2 different service providers operating overlapping routes on the same corridor, just because 1 is for the City and one is for the surrounding suburbs. To me, that's archaic.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
Do you think there would be enough demand to run an express rush hour trains outbound from Union in the AM and inbound in the PM (particularly to Kitchener and Hamilton)? I think there could be, and there would be the added advantage of putting more service on these lines without needing to build additional storage facilities.
Dan416
Senior Member
Hold on I just noticed you have no regional express service on the Milton line?!?!
That's a good question. I guess they could float it as a pilot project and see. Certainly the FastTrack trains would be doing at least 2 inbound runs during peak, so I suppose they could continue as a revenue service outbound run between inbound runs.
Because this is a short to medium term plan, and I don't think the necessary upgrades will be complete along the Milton corridor for quite some time. All-day two-way service? Sure. But up to the standards required for GO REX? Probably not.
If GO can work out a way to get those freight trips off the Milton line, of course it could get, and could support, GO REX.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
I haven't been following this thread very closely so I apologize if this has been addressed previously. What is the rationale for calling Etobicoke North Station Kipling Station in your plan? Particularly given that there already is a Kipling station on the Milton line...
Good question. I just figured that "Etobicoke North" was a really general name that really didn't give much detail as to where it was. I suppose I could rename it "Kipling North" to avoid too much confusion. Thanks for pointing that out.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The thing about the Milton line is that it could actually be cheaper to completely skip the "two way all day" phase (with upgrades to the existing line, passing tracks, new station platforms, etc...) and go straight to GO REX by building two dedicated tracks for transit.
That's another defining feature of the Berlin S-Bahn. Dedicated trackage.
That's a good point. Adding 2 tracks would be a pretty big project though, and is still probably a medium to long term project, at least compared to the other 2 GO REX lines. I have no doubt that it will eventually be upgraded to GO REX standards, but I want the map to represent the earlier phases of the system, not the ultimate buildout. Even when you look at the underlying local network, it's only including Priority Projects, not things like the Jane or Don Mills LRTs, because those are a fair bit out on the horizon.
But if there's a reasonable chance of it being bumped up in priority, I suppose I could include it as well.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Out in the 905 there should be plenty of empty space for new rail corridors with dedicated trackage.
CDL.TO
Moderator
The 905 is a big place with lots of different local contexts.
I don't know, the Milton line seems like it's pretty hemmed in with development on either side. Expanding it to allow 2 dedicated GO REX tracks would be pretty costly. Personally, I think it would be easier to build a freight bypass to get freight traffic off the Milton line, so that the existing tracks could be used for GO or GO REX.
Dan416
Senior Member
New rail corridors? Where? Mississauga is pretty built up...