[gweed123]

Although the idea is a good one it won't succeed until Toronto integrats the GO fares with the TTC. In other words if the GO fare is $5 and TTC $3.50 then the GO Rex fare would be $1.50.

As it stands right now GO rail is a 905 service and has little effect on Toronto travellers. Some of that is due to lower frequency but most due to expense. GO with a TTC pass/fare is damn expensive and most TTC users are middle/low income and those extra fares take a really big bite out of discretionary income and far to much for a lower income person to absorb especially transit heavy users of single parents, disabled, students, the elderly, and new immigrants.

As I stated in another thread, the best way to bring true rapid transit to all corners of Toronto would be to have all transit on GO rail currently offered in the City of Toronto included in their standard Metropass. A calculation could be done to transfer lost GO revenue from the TTC/City Hall and paid for thru new taxes. The new areas in the further flung Toronto suburbs would be far better served than by any Finch/Shep LRT and those funds could be redirected to electrify the system and buy more trains.

The people from Humber/Woodbine area by being able to access Etiboko North station would be downtown before their LRT even reaches the Spadina Ext. By making GO rail usable for TTC patronss it would GREATLY increase residential and commercial TOD near the GO station which currently is non-existent and it's non-existent for a reason..........the service to Torontonians is relatively useless.

The way I see it is that the whole GTHA would be under a unified fare payment and fare zone system. The map that I posted in another thread (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map - To Scale.jpg) shows exactly that. There would be 3 categories of transit: local transit, express local transit, and express regional transit.

Local transit is the bus and streetcar networks, which wouldn't be subject to the fare zone system, or would charge only a 1 zone fare, regardless of distance. Since most local routes would cross at most 1 fare boundary anyway, if any, it wouldn't be a big deal, and enforcing the fare zones on local routes is much more difficult to do.

The Express Local is things like the subway, LRT, and BRT networks. They would be the base fare plus $1 for each additional zone. That means if the base fare was $3, that people taking the subway in from north of the 401, east of Victoria Park, or west of the Humber would be paying $4 instead of the current $3.

The Express Regional would be GO REX, current-style GO service, and Express BRT (like the 407 Transitway and certain routes on the Mississauga Transitway). They would be the base fare plus $1.50 for each additional zone.

So if you're staying inside 1 zone, it makes no difference what 'level' you use, because it's just the base fare. This would be most of the City of Toronto. For people coming into downtown from the outer 416 or very inner 905, the difference between taking the subway and taking GO REX would only be 50¢. For a lot of people, spending the extra 50¢ to save 15 minutes or more on your commute time is well worth it, especially when for a lot of Scarborough, connecting to a GO REX station would be easier than connecting to Kennedy or Don Mills.

In terms of payment, I think the refund model works best. It's a lot easier to convince people to tap twice if they're getting money back, vs tap twice to pay again. When you tap on a local bus, you're charged the fare, as normal. If you tap onto a subway station, you're charged the maximum fare for that system (3 zones, $5). When you reach your destination and you tap off, you're credited with the zones you didn't travel. So for example, if you stayed in 1 zone, your card is credited with $2. For Express Regional, you'd be charged the full amount of that line, and credited the difference when you tap off at that station.

This all sounds really complicated, but for the user it's pretty simple: tap on everywhere, tap off everywhere. It's time-based, so if you tap on somewhere else after your transfer, it will only charge you the difference between the last system you tapped off of, and the system you're tapping on to. As long as the user remembers to tap, everything should work out. And if they don't, then they don't get their money back.

 

[gweed123]

If any one concept would make transit in Toronto world-class, it would be this.

Agreed. Dollar for dollar, it would have a far bigger impact than any LRT, BRT, or Subway line the region could build.

 

[doady]

If any one concept would make transit in Toronto world-class, it would be this.

Funny, because not many people in Toronto would actually use this service, judging from the ridership of the GO stations in Toronto (other than Union).

 

[LNahid2000]

Funny, because not many people in Toronto would actually use this service, judging from the ridership of the GO stations in Toronto (other than Union).

That's because there is no fare integration between GO and TTC meaning a GO + TTC ride inside Toronto costs upwards of $7.

 

[Dan416]

Funny, because not many people in Toronto would actually use this service, judging from the ridership of the GO stations in Toronto (other than Union).

I meant Toronto in the broader sense, not the City of Toronto. Although with the new stations it would certainly be used more.

 

[gweed123]

That's because there is no fare integration between GO and TTC meaning a GO + TTC ride inside Toronto costs upwards of $7.

Exactly. With a universal fare system, more stations, and more frequent trains, I see no reasons why GO REX stations couldn't give a lot of subway stations a run for their money in terms of usage. They may not hit Bloor-Yonge ridership levels, but I think they could be just as busy as stations like Dufferin, Broadview, or York Mills.

 

[BurlOak]

Think of it this way:

1) Stop spacing similar to the current GO system in the 905, more akin to the North Yonge section (every 2km or so) in the 416.

2) Electrified trains running about every 15 minutes off-peak on all 4 lines. Since 2 lines are "overlapping" lines, where they overlap would see a net frequency of 7.5 mins, just above what we would consider subway level service.

And I assume the frequency would be 3.75 minutes on the portion through City Place to Main where the Lakeshore and the Brampton-Markham lines overlap

So basically, it provides a frequent commuter train for the suburbs, and an express alternative to the subway system in the city. If you want an international comparison, think S-Bahn in Berlin or RER in Paris.

It differs from the current GO rail in that it's electrified, it has greater frequencies, and has more stops inside of Toronto.

Hopefully that clarifies it a little bit! If I had to sum it up in a single sentence, it would be this: "Heavy rail subway with slightly larger than normal stop spacing running above ground using existing rail corridors".

The trouble with the word "express" is that it means that stations would be skipped - and not that the frequency is high. Based on your description, I think all trains would stop at all station that they pass.

Again, since your description was for all day, I assume that during peak times the frequency of the GO REX might increase, and/or some of the GO REX would skip some stations and be a form of express, or the exurban GO would go all the way through past Union, possibly as an express.

 

[gweed123]

And I assume the frequency would be 3.75 minutes on the portion through City Place to Main where the Lakeshore and the Brampton-Markham lines overlap

Yes, it would be. You would be looking at subway level frequencies through the main section (what I've referred to in some cases as the "Central Viaduct", the portion of the GO system that carries almost all of the lines until they branch apart), 7.5 min frequencies on the outer 416 sections, and 15 min frequencies through most of the 905. Of course, the "overlap" routes can have their frequencies scaled back slightly if it ends up being too much service. The key is to have enough service in the outer areas, but more in the inner areas so that it functions like an express subway.

The trouble with the word "express" is that it means that stations would be skipped - and not that the frequency is high. Based on your description, I think all trains would stop at all station that they pass.

To me, I equate "express" more with speed. But yes, you could interpret it that way as well. I haven't found another word that describes it as accurately as express. I'd love to hear suggestions though.

Again, since your description was for all day, I assume that during peak times the frequency of the GO REX might increase, and/or some of the GO REX would skip some stations and be a form of express, or the exurban GO would go all the way through past Union, possibly as an express.

Yes. What I figure is that during rush hours, the GO REX lines would feature what is in essence an inverse of the "overlap" routes, whereby trains would run local in the 905 (up to the termini of the overlap routes), and then run express to Union, bypassing all stations covered by the overlap routes except for Union. That would be rush hour only though. I tried showing that on some of my older maps, but I felt it made the map look too cluttered. GO runs similar trips today, so I figured it wouldn't need to be something shown on maps, just in the on-train and on-platform signage.

 

[ssiguy2]

So to summarize.................GO Rex is the same as Melbourne and Sydney's CityRail system?

Personally I think it's time they should begin to think about scrapping GO althogether or atleast for service withing the GTAH.

Vancouver's Zone system is any excellent one and one Toronto should emulate. It has 3 zones and that's it and all three zones cost exactly the same. Where the cost goes up is only when you cross a zone boundary. Vancouver is Zone 1, Bur/Rich/NS Zone 2, and everything else Zone 3.

If you go from Vanc to Surrey it's 3 zones but if you go from Rich to Sur its also only 2 zones.........it encourages suburbanites to take the bus. Vancouver also has no commuter buses as they are just part of the standard system. I live in White Rock and it's 30 km south of Vancouver and the bus I take to get downtown leaves every 20 minutes all day and take the freeway with HOV all the way to Bridgeport Canada Line station. There are a lot of rush hour buses that serve the same route and there is no extra fare as it is simply part of the standard bus system but uses HOV, freeway, and commuter stlye buses.

The new HWY # 1 BRT project will have a bus from Lang Centre to Burnaby, 15 km using commuter highway buses, HOV, and special on/off ramp for easy freeway access but the fare is just standard.

The GTAH system should be an easy 4 Zone system..................Zone 1 Tor, Zone 2 Peel, Most of York, Pic/Ajax, Zone 3 Halton, Durham, Northern York, and Zone 4 Hamilton.

An ultra easy system even Ford could figure out and the fare has nothing to do with commuter, heavy, LRT, BRT, expr bus, bus, streetcar...........nothing. Full faree integration and basically one big system that doesn't require 20 minutes on a website to figure out your fare.

 

[gweed123]

So to summarize.................GO Rex is the same as Melbourne and Sydney's CityRail system?

Don't have any experience with either of those systems, so I can't really say.

Personally I think it's time they should begin to think about scrapping GO althogether or atleast for service withing the GTAH.

What??? Scrap GO and replace it with what? The TTC? If anything, the TTC needs to be uploaded under GO.

Vancouver's Zone system is any excellent one and one Toronto should emulate. It has 3 zones and that's it and all three zones cost exactly the same. Where the cost goes up is only when you cross a zone boundary. Vancouver is Zone 1, Bur/Rich/NS Zone 2, and everything else Zone 3.

If you go from Vanc to Surrey it's 3 zones but if you go from Rich to Sur its also only 2 zones.........it encourages suburbanites to take the bus. Vancouver also has no commuter buses as they are just part of the standard system. I live in White Rock and it's 30 km south of Vancouver and the bus I take to get downtown leaves every 20 minutes all day and take the freeway with HOV all the way to Bridgeport Canada Line station. There are a lot of rush hour buses that serve the same route and there is no extra fare as it is simply part of the standard bus system but uses HOV, freeway, and commuter stlye buses.

The new HWY # 1 BRT project will have a bus from Lang Centre to Burnaby, 15 km using commuter highway buses, HOV, and special on/off ramp for easy freeway access but the fare is just standard.

The GTAH system should be an easy 4 Zone system..................Zone 1 Tor, Zone 2 Peel, Most of York, Pic/Ajax, Zone 3 Halton, Durham, Northern York, and Zone 4 Hamilton.

An ultra easy system even Ford could figure out and the fare has nothing to do with commuter, heavy, LRT, BRT, expr bus, bus, streetcar...........nothing. Full faree integration and basically one big system that doesn't require 20 minutes on a website to figure out your fare.

Vancouver has the advantage of geography though. It's a lot easier to design an 'arc' zone system when the central point is a peninsula. You can't really get from one Zone 3 part to another Zone 3 part by transit (at least not very easily).

The geography of the GTHA makes a perfect arcing zone system much more difficult, because then you end up with a Zone 3 that is significantly larger than Zone 2 or Zone 1, and unlike Vancouver, there isn't a massive body of water (be it the Fraser River or Vancouver Harbour) separating the different parts of Zone 3. It's contiguous suburbia.

That's why the system that I designed, while it has significantly more zones than just 3, is still more or less an arc around Toronto, it's just the suburban zones are broken down into sub-zones so that you can't trek across 3/4s of the top of the GTA and still be in the same fare zone.

 

[ssiguy2]

While it is true Vancouver has the benefit of natural boundaries that is not always the case. Burnaby/NuWest/PM/Coquitlam/Port Coquitlam have no phsical boundaries but rather just lines on a map. As I stated the Zones would be REGIONAL Municipalities dedicated.........ie Peel would entail Miss/Bramp/Cale.

As it stands now GO is relatively useless to Torontonians, it is a 905 system and it must have Toronto service that is worth taking by saving both time and money.

Imagine how many more Torontonians would be serviced by standard fare GO service if it was part of the Metropass system. Using Finch and Sheppard LRT funds of $2 billion were instead directed twards electrifying the system and running frequent service.

What Toronto could also do is instead of taking GO trains for more local service they could run my identifiable trains like the UP Link/O-Train. It would get rid of any confusion between more 905 service and standard Toronto TTC service.

 

[M II A II R II K]

GO can be express only stopping at Union, and a TTC service can approximate the existing rail corridor with additional underground sections with certain divergent routes as well to cover places in Toronto.

 

[gweed123]

While it is true Vancouver has the benefit of natural boundaries that is not always the case. Burnaby/NuWest/PM/Coquitlam/Port Coquitlam have no phsical boundaries but rather just lines on a map. As I stated the Zones would be REGIONAL Municipalities dedicated.........ie Peel would entail Miss/Bramp/Cale.

As it stands now GO is relatively useless to Torontonians, it is a 905 system and it must have Toronto service that is worth taking by saving both time and money.

Imagine how many more Torontonians would be serviced by standard fare GO service if it was part of the Metropass system. Using Finch and Sheppard LRT funds of $2 billion were instead directed twards electrifying the system and running frequent service.

What Toronto could also do is instead of taking GO trains for more local service they could run my identifiable trains like the UP Link/O-Train. It would get rid of any confusion between more 905 service and standard Toronto TTC service.

I would much prefer the TTC adapt to GO, not the other way around. The Metropass should (and probably will) be dead within 10 years, much the same way that the 5 and 10 ride tickets will be dead for GO soon. The TTC's fare system should be adapted to better integrate with GO, not GO's system to better integrate with the antiquated TTC fare system.

And I don't think there's any need for the TTC to run a parallel service. The TTC just needs to adapt and create a fare system that actually makes sense for integrating with other transit systems, and GO REX would see very good usage.

 

[BurlOak]

Lol, typo. Fixed.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GO REX_v2.jpg

Great map. A few comments.

1. Should the Barrie line have some Exurban service similar to Uxbridge. I would think the frequency north of Newmarket could be less.
2. Could the Milton line end at Distillery instead of Union. It may be easier to turn trains around at a less busy station.
3. It would be nice to show the peak service on the same map, since it is the peak that determines the needs for tracks and stations and it is still the service that most people will use. I do accept your comment that it will become more complex and maybe more difficult to read.
4. Could the connection between your new Union station on the Yonge line be connected to the existing Union station with a white oval instead of a black line.
5. How would it look if the Niagara part of the line cuved back to the right instead of going straight down.
6. Could the "EX" in "REX" stand for "Expedited" instead of Express. Both TTC and GO use express to mean skipping stations and I kept trying to understand from you map which stations would be skipped and when.
7. Could you make the font (much) bigger for the station names and the index table. I should be able to read it all when viewed in normal scale, whichout the need for a 60" monitor.

Metrolinx has been talking about improving GO transit for years - it is part of The Big Move. What is amazing is that they have yet to convey how they plan to improve things in a graphical way that is easily understandable to the public. This has greatly undermined that organization and has negatively affected the ability of the Region to raise additional transit revenues. Your map explains improved GO in clear and rational terms.

 

[gweed123]

Great map. A few comments.

1. Should the Barrie line have some Exurban service similar to Uxbridge. I would think the frequency north of Newmarket could be less.
2. Could the Milton line end at Distillery instead of Union. It may be easier to turn trains around at a less busy station.
3. It would be nice to show the peak service on the same map, since it is the peak that determines the needs for tracks and stations and it is still the service that most people will use. I do accept your comment that it will become more complex and maybe more difficult to read.
4. Could the connection between your new Union station on the Yonge line be connected to the existing Union station with a white oval instead of a black line.
5. How would it look if the Niagara part of the line cuved back to the right instead of going straight down.
6. Could the "EX" in "REX" stand for "Expedited" instead of Express. Both TTC and GO use express to mean skipping stations and I kept trying to understand from you map which stations would be skipped and when.
7. Could you make the font (much) bigger for the station names and the index table. I should be able to read it all when viewed in normal scale, whichout the need for a 60" monitor.

Metrolinx has been talking about improving GO transit for years - it is part of The Big Move. What is amazing is that they have yet to convey how they plan to improve things in a graphical way that is easily understandable to the public. This has greatly undermined that organization and has negatively affected the ability of the Region to raise additional transit revenues. Your map explains improved GO in clear and rational terms.

A lot of great suggestions, thanks!

I did most of the changes you suggested. The biggest ones that I didn't was showing Exurban service on the Barrie-Richmond Hill and Cambridge lines, and the change in terminology of what "REX" comprises. I figured putting the exurban shuttle on lines like those wouldn't make much sense, because the shuttles on the other lines would be running at about the same frequency as the main trains on the non-GO REX lines. If the occasional train is a short-turn train, it can be signed appropriately on a case by case basis. The REX thing, what I did was referred to the Rush Hour trains as "FastTrack" trains. It still gives the same connotation as Express, but doesn't confuse the two terms.

The Milton line terminus, the peak service, the Union Station configuration, the Niagara line curving back, and the bigger font changes were all made. Hopefully it clears up a lot of things.

Again, thanks for the suggestions!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GO REX_v3.jpg