[M II A II R II K]

It also could be like the Sydney Cityrail where it's commuter rail in the outlying areas and has close stop spacing and is underground in the downtown core.

 

[diminutive]

Yea, I was thinking more like Washington's Metro or SF's BART, but I guess the principle of limited stop suburban commuter lines feeding into a central, densely spaced urban segment is pretty vague and universal. The RER network in Paris also functions like this.

 

[M II A II R II K]

A Richmond Hill route could have a connection at Broadview to transfer there, a station on Dundas East which would also include an underground service to Dundas Square. And a Leslieville Station that would connect with a Queen Line.

So there'd be a DRL and a shorter Spadina to Gerrard Square line that would cover U of T, Chinatown, Dundas Square, Ryerson, and Cabbagetown too.

Which would also free up Union and the YUS.

 

[diminutive]

Umm, putting it all on a map I'd imagine something like this. I'm sure there're a ton of problems with that map (what route should the DLR take? What is appropriate suburban spacing?) but nominally I think it shows the idea of multiple suburban branch metros converging on an urban trunk line. With ATO headways could be kept very low, allowing some creative interlining solutions.

Advantages: deal with transit to YYZ, relieve not just B-Y but the entire Yonge line, provide EW rapid transit downtown, provide REX/Sbahn/RER/WTV service all major suburban centers (for some reason I ignored Brampton, but I think the branch to that is fairly easy to imagine), provide better rapid transit to the 416 suburbs like Scarborough or York.

 

[unimaginative2]

It's definitely a valid point that regional rail can play the role of a DRL, particularly in the west. In the east, I think that the connections at Main Street and Broadview, if the latter is even possible, would be too awkward to function effectively in the east. I still think that a DRL subway would be very worthwhile both as more fine grained service in the central city and further up along the Don Mills corridor. In the west, however, a separate DRL subway might not be necessary west of, say, Exhibition at least in the short term. The combined service of the Bolton, Milton, Brampton, and Bradford lines south of Bloor would mean that CityRail would be at least as frequent as a subway. There certainly wouldn't be a need for a separate subway to parallel the CityRail line in the Weston corridor.

 

[gweed123]

Gweed, I think you're definitely on the right track there. Stations within the existing urban area definitely need to be sensitive to their surrounding neighbourhoods. That said, they're not bad spots in most cases for some higher density development.

I'm not sure I'd put so much focus on parking in the suburban stations. I would expect and hope that the modal split for suburban regional rail stations would be comparable to that of existing TTC suburban subway stations. The most important thing is a bus terminal for easy connections from buses to CityRail. You're absolutely right about making it more convenient for people to stop briefly on the way home at regional rail stations. That's the model in much of the rest of the world. Unfortunately, you'll get into the fare barrier issue. Unless people have passes, they can't leave the fare-paid area. If we went with a partial POP approach or, better yet, timed transfers, that wouldn't be so much of an issue.

I agree, but the reality is that there's only a limited amount of funds for transit expansion. With so much money being poured into GO REX, I would imagine that the suburban transit improvements needed in order to boost local ridership going TO the stations would happen later on. Hence the need for the parking. Certainly not ideal, but without those improved local transit connections (which are going to cost quite a bit of money), people are going to drive to the GO REX stations, or continue to drive all the way to work. Given the choice between someone driving to the nearest station and someone driving all the way to work, I'd rather have them driving to the stations.

 

[gweed123]

It's definitely a valid point that regional rail can play the role of a DRL, particularly in the west. In the east, I think that the connections at Main Street and Broadview, if the latter is even possible, would be too awkward to function effectively in the east. I still think that a DRL subway would be very worthwhile both as more fine grained service in the central city and further up along the Don Mills corridor. In the west, however, a separate DRL subway might not be necessary west of, say, Exhibition at least in the short term. The combined service of the Bolton, Milton, Brampton, and Bradford lines south of Bloor would mean that CityRail would be at least as frequent as a subway. There certainly wouldn't be a need for a separate subway to parallel the CityRail line in the Weston corridor.

I agree. This is why to me the de-coupling of the Yonge and University-Spadina lines, with the latter being connected to the DRL East, makes so much sense. It opens up some extension opportunities for the Yonge line, while providing an evenly matched service level on the Spadina and Don Mills sides.

I see Dundas West and Main Stn becoming major hubs for subway-REX connections, considering each of them is going to have 1 subway line and at least 2 REX lines passing through them.

In order to properly serve downtown, and the development in it, well into the future, I think there are the things that need to happen (in order):

1) Lakeshore & Brampton-Markham GO REX
2) DRL East coupled with University-Spadina, with new Union (Yonge) platform built on a NE-SW alignment under the east end of the rail tracks.
3) Milton GO REX
4) Yonge line extension to CityPlace/Bathurst/the EX (depending on funding), followed by a subsequent extension to Dufferin-Bloor via Dufferin.
5) Waterfront West LRT running from Port Credit to Queen-Dufferin (to meet at the Yonge subway extension).
6) Extension of the WWLRT under Queen to the DRL East, through downtown.

Naturally the 1st 2 are must-haves, preferably in the next 15 years. 3 and 4 will need to happen eventually, and 5 and 6 would be nice-to-haves.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree. This is why to me the de-coupling of the Yonge and University-Spadina lines, with the latter being connected to the DRL East, makes so much sense. It opens up some extension opportunities for the Yonge line, while providing an evenly matched service level on the Spadina and Don Mills sides.

Interesting idea. Decoupling is definitely an option, though it might be more trouble than it's worth. Yonge is busier, but it's not as though University or likely Don Mills are far behind. They'd all require capacity pretty close to the maximum for our subway system. It also limits the "around the horn" trips that reduce the pressure on stations like King and Union. On the other hand, it presents some interesting extension options.

I see Dundas West and Main Stn becoming major hubs for subway-REX connections, considering each of them is going to have 1 subway line and at least 2 REX lines passing through them.

Absolutely--especially the former given its more convenient connections. Main Street needs a dedicated walkway, but it still has plenty of potential.

In order to properly serve downtown, and the development in it, well into the future, I think there are the things that need to happen (in order):

1) Lakeshore & Brampton-Markham GO REX
2) DRL East coupled with University-Spadina, with new Union (Yonge) platform built on a NE-SW alignment under the east end of the rail tracks.
3) Milton GO REX
4) Yonge line extension to CityPlace/Bathurst/the EX (depending on funding), followed by a subsequent extension to Dufferin-Bloor via Dufferin.
5) Waterfront West LRT running from Port Credit to Queen-Dufferin (to meet at the Yonge subway extension).
6) Extension of the WWLRT under Queen to the DRL East, through downtown.

Naturally the 1st 2 are must-haves, preferably in the next 15 years. 3 and 4 will need to happen eventually, and 5 and 6 would be nice-to-haves.

I'd probably come up with something a little different, but that looks like a pretty good plan to me. We'd be much better off than we are now! The WWLRT is very useful when it connects to a subway at Exhibition or Roncesvalles. I don't think that an underground light rail extension into the downtown core is a good idea, for the reasons that the TTC dismissed extending the Harbourfront LRT north along Bay during the Downtown Relief Line study. The underground section doesn't cost much less to build than a full subway, but its capacity and reliability are severely limited by the surface segment of the line.

I agree, but the reality is that there's only a limited amount of funds for transit expansion. With so much money being poured into GO REX, I would imagine that the suburban transit improvements needed in order to boost local ridership going TO the stations would happen later on. Hence the need for the parking. Certainly not ideal, but without those improved local transit connections (which are going to cost quite a bit of money), people are going to drive to the GO REX stations, or continue to drive all the way to work. Given the choice between someone driving to the nearest station and someone driving all the way to work, I'd rather have them driving to the stations.

They can't be delayed like that. If you don't improve the local transit service, then there's little point in building regional rail. CityRail is meant to be a rapid transit backbone for the GTA, not the only transit service. That would be like building a huge new subway line and not spending a further 1% of the total cost on improving the feeder bus network. The feeder bus network is the key to the success of Toronto's suburban subway network. Without it, our subways in the suburbs wouldn't be much busier than Atlanta's or other American cities that spent big on rapid transit infrastructure but didn't bother taking care of the little things. I can't emphasize enough how imperative good local bus service is to making regional rail (and transit in general) successful. I'd like to see at least the inner 905 develop at least a comparable network to the TTC's major arterial routes, with service at least every 10 minutes or so all day. Brampton's already doing it, and Mississauga and York have it in some places. And until that network is developed, there's no point in building regional rail.

They don't even come out of the same pot of money; improved bus service is more about the operating budget than the capital budget. At first, it will mean a subsidy increase, but the large number of new riders drawn by improved service and the rapid transit connections to CityRail would more than likely result in better, rather than worse, fare recovery.

You're right that it's better if someone drives to the station than drives all the way to their destination. I have no problem providing parking at some of the stations, as the TTC does at some subway stations, but it definitely needs to be the tertiary method of getting to the station, after bus and walking.

 

[gweed123]

Interesting idea. Decoupling is definitely an option, though it might be more trouble than it's worth. Yonge is busier, but it's not as though University or likely Don Mills are far behind. They'd all require capacity pretty close to the maximum for our subway system. It also limits the "around the horn" trips that reduce the pressure on stations like King and Union. On the other hand, it presents some interesting extension options.

I think the extension options is the big advantage. The wall of condos is going to continue pushing west along the waterfront, and I think a Yonge extension would be the perfect way to service that. A Yonge extension is about the only way that you can do it, because any DRL alignment that tries to do that would look like a piece of spaghetti thrown onto the map, and servicing the area between Spadina and Yonge would be nearly impossible.

The other advantage is the fact that you wouldn't have to rip up Union Station (subway), again. The Yonge platform can be built underneath the GO bus station, as well as the rail corridor, and connected via the improved streetcar loop. The only modification to the existing subway lines would be to have the Yonge line duck underneath the current 90 degree curve between Union and King. The eastbound trains leaving Union would continue eastward under Front, while the southbound Yonge trains would duck underneath the DRL tracks. The eastbound to northbound curve would be maintained through this as well (much like between St George and Spadina stations).

It's when you get platform and station reconfigurations that it starts to really become a headache. Decoupling would avoid both of those. The only disruption to service would be track disruptions exclusively between Union and King. Didn't there used to be a set of cross-overs just north of King? If so, put those back in and run Yonge trains only to King, and US trains only to Union during certain periods of construction.

Absolutely--especially the former given its more convenient connections. Main Street needs a dedicated walkway, but it still has plenty of potential.

Yup, a moving sidewalk type of thing would definitely come in handy there. Although with Main, it would really only be Lakeshore REX passengers making that transfer. Most of the Markham REX passengers would be transferring at Kennedy (since it would be a more direct transfer).

I'd probably come up with something a little different, but that looks like a pretty good plan to me. We'd be much better off than we are now! The WWLRT is very useful when it connects to a subway at Exhibition or Roncesvalles. I don't think that an underground light rail extension into the downtown core is a good idea, for the reasons that the TTC dismissed extending the Harbourfront LRT north along Bay during the Downtown Relief Line study. The underground section doesn't cost much less to build than a full subway, but its capacity and reliability are severely limited by the surface segment of the line.

Even if you only run the WWLRT into about Dufferin, it would still be very effective. I suggest Dufferin for the N-S subway not only because it's the busiest bus route, but because it would make Queen & Dufferin and absolutely massive transit hub, second only to Union. Brampton REX, Milton (future REX), Barrie GO, Yonge Subway Extension, WWLRT. Huge transfer point.

As for the underground LRT, the reason why I suggest that is because I think Queen needs much more local stop spacing. If you build the Queen LRT as a secondary line, you can have smaller stations that are closer together. Don't forget, with all of those GO REX services, as well as the subway system, the Queen LRT is going to basically be an improved local line for bringing people into downtown.

They can't be delayed like that. If you don't improve the local transit service, then there's little point in building regional rail. CityRail is meant to be a rapid transit backbone for the GTA, not the only transit service. That would be like building a huge new subway line and not spending a further 1% of the total cost on improving the feeder bus network. The feeder bus network is the key to the success of Toronto's suburban subway network. Without it, our subways in the suburbs wouldn't be much busier than Atlanta's or other American cities that spent big on rapid transit infrastructure but didn't bother taking care of the little things. I can't emphasize enough how imperative good local bus service is to making regional rail (and transit in general) successful. I'd like to see at least the inner 905 develop at least a comparable network to the TTC's major arterial routes, with service at least every 10 minutes or so all day. Brampton's already doing it, and Mississauga and York have it in some places. And until that network is developed, there's no point in building regional rail.

They don't even come out of the same pot of money; improved bus service is more about the operating budget than the capital budget. At first, it will mean a subsidy increase, but the large number of new riders drawn by improved service and the rapid transit connections to CityRail would more than likely result in better, rather than worse, fare recovery.

You're right that it's better if someone drives to the station than drives all the way to their destination. I have no problem providing parking at some of the stations, as the TTC does at some subway stations, but it definitely needs to be the tertiary method of getting to the station, after bus and walking.

It's true that there can be soft increases in local transit service (better frequencies, etc), but a lot of those 905 REX stations are going to really require rapid transit (primarily BRT) connections in order to be truly effective. With so much money being poured into GO REX, I have a feeling those BRT projects are going to be Phase II projects.

Bringing up the TTC feeder bus service is certainly a valid one, but one of the things that is different in the 905 is the overall density, and the way the road networks are designed. Aside from major concession roads, there aren't very many other through-roads. The end result is that a lot of bus routes are really windy, and take forever to get to where they're going. It's an unfortunate reality. This differs from a lot of Toronto's suburbs, which while they may not have a lot of density, the immediate post-war period style of development was still very much grid oriented, with a hierarchy of roads. A lot of the road patterns in the 905 are a mix of crescents, cul-de-sacs, and windy roads.

Even with enhanced bus service, the reality is still that the majority of people will choose to drive to the GO REX station. Is that ideal? Definitely not. But until we have 10 min service running in dedicated bus lanes along most concession roads, and denser development along those roads in order to make those services viable, it's still going to be a car dominated modal split.

 

[unimaginative2]

Yup, a moving sidewalk type of thing would definitely come in handy there. Although with Main, it would really only be Lakeshore REX passengers making that transfer. Most of the Markham REX passengers would be transferring at Kennedy (since it would be a more direct transfer).

That's an interesting question. I wonder where people would transfer coming from Markham. It would depend on whether the time taken by additional stops on the subway outweighs the time connecting at Main Street. I actually suspect that it would.

As for the underground LRT, the reason why I suggest that is because I think Queen needs much more local stop spacing. If you build the Queen LRT as a secondary line, you can have smaller stations that are closer together. Don't forget, with all of those GO REX services, as well as the subway system, the Queen LRT is going to basically be an improved local line for bringing people into downtown.

The problem is that with frequent stop spacing, you're wasting even more money with underground LRT. LRVs require much longer trains for a given capacity, so you're building long, expensive stations to move the same number of people as you could move with much shorter conventional rapid transit trains.

It's true that there can be soft increases in local transit service (better frequencies, etc), but a lot of those 905 REX stations are going to really require rapid transit (primarily BRT) connections in order to be truly effective. With so much money being poured into GO REX, I have a feeling those BRT projects are going to be Phase II projects.

Bringing up the TTC feeder bus service is certainly a valid one, but one of the things that is different in the 905 is the overall density, and the way the road networks are designed. Aside from major concession roads, there aren't very many other through-roads. The end result is that a lot of bus routes are really windy, and take forever to get to where they're going. It's an unfortunate reality. This differs from a lot of Toronto's suburbs, which while they may not have a lot of density, the immediate post-war period style of development was still very much grid oriented, with a hierarchy of roads. A lot of the road patterns in the 905 are a mix of crescents, cul-de-sacs, and windy roads.

Even with enhanced bus service, the reality is still that the majority of people will choose to drive to the GO REX station. Is that ideal? Definitely not. But until we have 10 min service running in dedicated bus lanes along most concession roads, and denser development along those roads in order to make those services viable, it's still going to be a car dominated modal split.

Some of the stations could benefit from higher level connecting transit like BRT, but I definitely don't think it would be necessary for most of them. Most Toronto suburban stations don't have anything more than a good, frequent local bus service. York Mills, Lawrence, Finch, etc. all function fine without bus lanes or anything like that. It's a complete myth that the inner 905 is so much less dense than the 416. Look at either side of Steeles and you'll see that there's almost no difference. In fact, many parts of Markham and Brampton are much denser than the 1960s suburbia of Scarborough and Etobicoke. Yet Scarborough and Etobicoke support frequent bus service just fine, even with their windy cul-de-sacs.

If regional rail is mostly dependent on drive-in customers, then it has failed. It will never be more than a peak commuter service. But I don't think it would be. With good suburban bus service like we have in the 416 and, increasingly, in places like Brampton, we can get the same transit modal split we have in the 416 suburbs.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Main Street would still be necessary for Lakeshore riders if they want to go to Danforth. Build a new station closer to Main Street and have the GO trains stop there and have the VIA trains and others go straight through the tracks that are already there.

 

[nfitz]

Main Street would still be necessary for Lakeshore riders if they want to go to Danforth. Build a new station closer to Main Street and have the GO trains stop there and have the VIA trains and others go straight through the tracks that are already there.

The existing GO station couldn't be any closer to Main Street. The platform is underneath Main Street. (or do you suggest moving the subway station ... but that is already underneath Main Street).

What could be useful is a 300-metre tunnel from the west end of the existing Main Street station concourse to the existing tunnel under Danforth station, with a moving sidewalk.

 

[drum118]

A 300 meter tunnel for Main is nothing compare to the various tunnels you have to use here in Europe to change lines or systems.

The tunnel at Monte Carlo requires you to use 3 long moving walkway and that close to 1km from the time you entre it to the train platform.

The same can be said in London or Paris as well. In those cities, stairs are the bitch to use. Paris has a few with walkways, but none in London that I have used that comes to mind at this time.

The existing GO stations within Toronto must come part of the Regional system to the point there needs to be a few more. Then GO/Metrolinx and TTC need to be drag to the table and shown how they can operate as a local and regional system at the same time where trains can run every 5-10 minutes.

If systems in Europe can run 4-12 double deck trains every 5-30 minutes all day on all routes and charge a single fare to do it with local service, time we do it.

 

[nfitz]

The same can be said in London or Paris as well. In those cities, stairs are the bitch to use. Paris has a few with walkways, but none in London that I have used that comes to mind at this time.

There used to be a moving sidewalk from Monument to Bank in London ... though I haven't used it since the 1970s ...

 

[unimaginative2]

There are lots of long transfer passages on other systems. New york has a bunch and so does London. The most famous might be Ch̢telet РLes Halles, which has a massively long moving walkway transfer corridor. It's not ideal, obviously, but a 300 metre moving walkway at Main Street wouldn't be that bad of a transfer.