[Northern Light]

I don't really think they aren't a waste of space and city council has done their usual constanion process by posting about it on the website and not letting anyone know about except for the people who look at everything on it all of the time. The report was a waste of city funds and council should be held accountable for it.

Sigh, just to set the record straight.

The report was originally requested in the previous term of Council and never done.

There were extensive consultations, of which I was a part, with all stakeholders invited including golfers, environmentalists, park advocates, area residents, First Nations, and cyclists among others.

It was not a small number of people at all.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Sigh, just to set the record straight.

The report was originally requested in the previous term of Council and never done.

There were extensive consultations, of which I was a part, with all stakeholders invited including golfers, environmentalists, park advocates, area residents, First Nations, and cyclists among others.

It was not a small number of people at all.

Whatever I still think it's ridiculous to complain about what's next we should waste money on studies to see if closing all of the cemeteries in Toronto and make them parks too?

 

[DSC]

Whatever I still think it's ridiculous to complain about what's next we should waste money on studies to see if closing all of the cemeteries in Toronto and make them parks too?

Now you are just being silly, or sillier!

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Now you are just being silly, or sillier!

Why aren't they a waste of space too? Or is it only because golf is for the elete and nobody else is allowed to use a golf course.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Just a small sidebar, I will say that being in a majority says nothing about whether a given belief is valid... not saying this about cycling, just a general observation.

Otherwise, it's disappointing that golf courses will continue wasting space in the city.

So, are soccer pitches a waste of space? Are cricket pitches a waste of space? Are baseball fields a waste of space? Are softball fields a waste of space? Are lawn bowling rinks a waste of space? Are ice hockey rinks a waste of space? Are field hockey pitches a waste of space? Are tree groves a waste of space? Are football fields a waste of space? Are cycling paths a waste of space? Are walking paths a waste of space? Et Cetera? Because you don't use them, are they all a waste of space?

Expressways and expressway intersections are a waste of space in my books.

 

[DirectionNorth]

So, are soccer pitches a waste of space? Are cricket pitches a waste of space? Are baseball fields a waste of space? Are softball fields a waste of space? Are lawn bowling rinks a waste of space? Are ice hockey rinks a waste of space? Are field hockey pitches a waste of space? Are tree groves a waste of space? Are football fields a waste of space? Are cycling paths a waste of space? Are walking paths a waste of space? Et Cetera? Because you don't use them, are they all a waste of space?

Expressways and expressway intersections are a waste of space in my books.

Golf courses are public land that cost a s***ton to maintain, are terrible for the environment, take valuable urban land, and aren't accessible to most of the public - especially the poor.

 

[picard102]

So, are soccer pitches a waste of space? Are cricket pitches a waste of space? Are baseball fields a waste of space? Are softball fields a waste of space? Are lawn bowling rinks a waste of space? Are ice hockey rinks a waste of space? Are field hockey pitches a waste of space? Are tree groves a waste of space? Are football fields a waste of space? Are cycling paths a waste of space? Are walking paths a waste of space? Et Cetera? Because you don't use them, are they all a waste of space?

Expressways and expressway intersections are a waste of space in my books.

It's a fruitless argument. Some people are dead set against golf courses due to their own prejudices and are not going to find them worth while no matter what. Luckily the city doesn't act on it and we'll still have public courses for some time yet.

 

[DirectionNorth]

It's a fruitless argument. Some people are dead set against golf courses due to their own prejudices and are not going to find them worth while no matter what. Luckily the city doesn't act on it and we'll still have public courses for some time yet.

Explain?

 

[north-of-anything]

It's small, but it's something. Reconfiguring the Dentonia course into a 9-hole course, instead of cramming 18 holes onto its footprint, is a sensible decision. In fact, if practice facilities and other infrastructure is put in place to appeal to a wider range of residents, it might attract more Torontonians to pick up the sport. The more people that are able to visit Dentonia at once, the more efficiently the land is being used, all without losing any green space. Win-win.

As for the other courses, at least we know for sure that they're off the table.

 

[A Torontonian Now]

So, are soccer pitches a waste of space? Are cricket pitches a waste of space? Are baseball fields a waste of space? Are softball fields a waste of space? Are lawn bowling rinks a waste of space? Are ice hockey rinks a waste of space? Are field hockey pitches a waste of space? Are tree groves a waste of space? Are football fields a waste of space? Are cycling paths a waste of space? Are walking paths a waste of space? Et Cetera? Because you don't use them, are they all a waste of space?

Expressways and expressway intersections are a waste of space in my books.

It seems relevant to me that golf courses are a much less intense use of space than pretty much everything else you listed. Fewer people are able to use / enjoy in an average day or week the golf courses than the equivalent amount of land dedicated to pretty much any other park or recreational use. I think there might be a case for keeping one municipal golf course, but in face if their declining popularity and the intensification of Toronto generally, should not parkland also intensify in terms of the numbers of people served?

What I'm trying to get at is that they needn't be a "waste of space" to be a suboptimal use of space.

 

[H4F33Z]

I don't really get why city council has this fascination with bikes, bike paths, and putting infrastructure on roads that people don't use as much as they think they do. Recently I witnessed an ambulance had to wait well drivers were confused as to what to do when they only had one lane on the Danforth both sides because city council decedied that we needed parking and bike lanes on it, it's absolutely ridiculous.

Disagree, I've biked and drove on Danforth many times. Drivers pull into the bike lane, parking lane, turning lane or buffer as much as possible, and emergency vehicles get through quickly, contrary to your statement.

 

[MisterF]

I don't really get why city council has this fascination with bikes, bike paths, and putting infrastructure on roads that people don't use as much as they think they do. Recently I witnessed an ambulance had to wait well drivers were confused as to what to do when they only had one lane on the Danforth both sides because city council decedied that we needed parking and bike lanes on it, it's absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to cater to the people who think we need more bike infrastructure. We don't need to chop up a golf course for stupid bike and walking trails.

Because unlike golf, cycling isn't just a form of recreation. It's a key form of transportation. Well developed cycling networks built to proper standards are universally well used. An activity that's both transportation and recreation will have greater public health and financial benefits than an activity that's recreation only.

So, are soccer pitches a waste of space? Are cricket pitches a waste of space? Are baseball fields a waste of space? Are softball fields a waste of space? Are lawn bowling rinks a waste of space? Are ice hockey rinks a waste of space? Are field hockey pitches a waste of space? Are tree groves a waste of space? Are football fields a waste of space? Are cycling paths a waste of space? Are walking paths a waste of space? Et Cetera? Because you don't use them, are they all a waste of space?

Expressways and expressway intersections are a waste of space in my books.

The difference is that outdoor sports fields rarely block trails and cycling connections the way that golf courses do. Baseball diamonds and soccer pitches often have trails right beside them in the same public space. They're very compact compared to a golf course and they're publicly accessible while they're not being actively used. Golf courses, OTOH, are functionally private spaces that take up enormous amounts of land and block key connections in the trail system.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

cycling isn't just a form of recreation. It's a key form of transportation. Well developed cycling networks built to proper standards are universally well used. An activity that's both transportation and recreation will have greater public health and financial benefits than an activity that's recreation only.

Yes people use it as transportation but adding bike lanes isn't going to make someone say I'm not going to use the car I'm going to use a bike instead.

 

[Northern Light]

Yes people use it as transportation but adding bike lanes isn't going to make someone say I'm not going to use the car I'm going to use a bike instead.

In point of fact, you're simply wrong about that.

Toronto's cycling numbers are way up in the last couple of years, it's very clear that people are reacting to the provision of safer cycling facilities/routes as well as the availability of Bikeshare.

 

[crs1026]

^I found the report pretty light on analysis - and numbers. And ideas.

If I understand the report correctly, the COVID experience has turned the courses around from a very small net loss (-$400K) to a modest net revenue (+$800K). There is a roughly $10M capital budget spread over a number of years. In the scope of the City's budget that's chickenfeed, which mostly convinces me that the courses ain't broke and might as well continue to operate. One could have a long debate about what $10M might achieve if diverted to some other recreational priority eg a new community center or swimming facility somewhere....personally I don't think that's productive. We should be setting budgets for a livable city without robbing Peter to pay Paul, so if we need an additional community center, we should just add it to the budget.

The consultation data is useful, it seems to confirm that golfers find the courses worthwhile and non-golfers are not opposed but would like more secondary uses worked in. It's disappointing that staff did not see fit to run with the input - for instance no suggested trail connections were even imagined for any of the courses. Even the Indigenous consultation was rather muted, in that it supported pursuing Indigenous use of the spaces but didn't articulate any specific spaces with cultural or heritage value, or any specific opportunities to put funding, let alone shovels in the ground, towards.

One comment in the report was that Scarlet and Humber Heights have some provision for public (walker/cyclist) safety that the others don't yet have in place - can anyone offer more detail?

Looking on the bright side, perhaps the Dentonia overhaul will generate some precedents that people find value in, and creates pressure for the same amenities in the other courses. Otherwise, there is not much momentum created by this report.

- Paul