Filip
Senior Member
I'm out of this argument, too many brainwashed. I feel like I'm arguing with CNN or Fox News.
Peace
Peace
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- Thread starter Dan416
- Start date
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Hydrogen
Guest
Ironic sign-off considering what you have written here.
smuncky
Senior Member
my question was to see if you did know. you painted over the whole situation quite broadly and specifically pointed out the russians as the ones that have no morals. however, there was definitely a second side to that which you didn't mention.
is torture right? of course not. but even in iraq, we've seen the US military torture prisoners.
if you're going to mention things like the war in chechnya, either place blame on both sides, or don't mention it at all.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I know there were human rights abuses on both sides and of course the Chechens are not innocent. But I was responding to Filip's attempt at moral equivalency here. What he is saying is akin to how all organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch etc. will single out the US as the worst abuser of human rights, because its convenient to do that and gets media attention, all while ignoring China, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc.
Filip's attitude is in keeping with that fine tradition. Do you or him really believe that Russia is that much better at human rights than the US? The US has its scandals (Abu Gharib) but does it not strike anyone as amazing that the US media would publicize these scandals, the US military would court martial its perpetrators, and that American society would condemn their actions. That is the result of a real democracy. And keep in mind, western society demands this standard of behaviour from soldiers who get beheaded at the hands of their captors, get sniped at, and get bombed with IEDs regularly. Compare that to the attitudes of the Russians, their media, their public, their government, to openly shelling Chechen villages and cities...and those are parts of Russia. The Russian people showed no sympathy for their fellow countrymen who were getting slaughtered by their own armed forces. And the Russian military certainly never prosecuted anyone for war crimes.
Filip will criticize US foreign policy...ie Iraq but has no qualms with Russia invading Georgia with almost as many troops as the Soviets invaded Afghanistan (according to Georgia's President). The US has never threatened nuclear conflict, even against Iran, but Filip apparently thinks its fine for the Russians to be able to threaten to wipe out Polish and Czech cities...all for building a defensive system.
All I am saying is....if we really want to start down this road of saying the west is being hypocritical, then we should be even handed. I was against the separation of Kosovo because I knew where this would lead. But Russia today has taken this to whole a new level. Not only have they gone so far as to invade Georgia and support the break up of a sovereign country. They are now talking like Georgia is merely the first on the list. Next stop...Ukraine.... They already managed to bully Moldova into signing an agreement never to join NATO or host foreign troops.
Yet, somehow according to Filip...this is all the fault of the West...or more specifically the US.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Don't cherry pick quotes....see my whole post.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Sorry, but we just can't agree with you on the need to accept genocides throughout Europe.
Filip
Senior Member
Hahahaha!! Go stick your head in the ground, you are too funny.
I'm not touching this but WOW LMAO!!
I'm not touching this but WOW LMAO!!
kEiThZ
Superstar
Good...at last you have nothing coherent to say...
urbandreamer
recession proof
Judging by this thread, I am rapidly finding out who the "real" Canadians are on this forum.
H
Hydrogen
Guest
I guess Filip would find fault with the allies of the Russian government as well. They've all been brainwashed, too, I guess.
Russia's Asia allies fail to back Georgia action
Reuters
August 28, 2008 at 6:19 AM EDT
DUSHANBE, TAJIKISTAN — A grouping of Russia's Asian allies expressed grave concern on Thursday over tensions in Georgia but failed to give the Kremlin clear support in its stand-off with the West. In a declaration signed by the leaders of China, Russia and four ex-Soviet Central Asian states, the Shanghai Co-operation Organization, called for reconciliation and more talks.
President Dmitry Medvedev, condemned by the West for recognizing two Georgian separatist regions as independent states, had hoped to drum up support for his action at the SCO summit in the Tajikistan capital of Dushanbe.
“The SCO states express grave concern in connection with the recent tensions around the South Ossetian issue and urge the sides to solve existing problems peacefully, through dialogue, and to make efforts facilitating reconciliation and talks,†their statement said.
Russia sent troops into Georgia this month to crush an attempt by the country's pro-Western leaders to retake the Moscow-backed separatist region of South Ossetia.
Mr. Medvedev this week recognized South Ossetia and a second Georgian separatist region of Abkhazia as independent states, defying the West which has said Georgia's sovereignty over its territory must be respected.
So far, no country – even close allies who often line up with Moscow against the West – has given explicit support for the Russian move.
The declaration did, however, back the six-point ceasefire deal, brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and acknowledged Russia's role in the Caucasus.
“The SCO states welcome the adoption in Moscow on August 12 of six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia's active role in contributing to peace and co-operation in the region,†it said.
At the start of the summit, Mr. Medvedev told leaders from China, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan that Russia's action was a legitimate response to “irresponsible Georgian aggression against South Ossetia.â€
“We are thankful for your understanding and an objective assessment of Russia's peacemaking efforts,†Mr. Medvedev said.
“We are sure that the position of SCO members will get an appropriate international response. I hope it will serve as a serious signal for those, who try ... to justify the bloody adventure of the Georgian leadership,†he added.
Analysts said Russia faced an uphill struggle to win backing over Georgia from its fellow SCO members, many of which have separatist problems within their own borders.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080828.wrussasia0828/BNStory/International/home
Russia's Asia allies fail to back Georgia action
Reuters
August 28, 2008 at 6:19 AM EDT
DUSHANBE, TAJIKISTAN — A grouping of Russia's Asian allies expressed grave concern on Thursday over tensions in Georgia but failed to give the Kremlin clear support in its stand-off with the West. In a declaration signed by the leaders of China, Russia and four ex-Soviet Central Asian states, the Shanghai Co-operation Organization, called for reconciliation and more talks.
President Dmitry Medvedev, condemned by the West for recognizing two Georgian separatist regions as independent states, had hoped to drum up support for his action at the SCO summit in the Tajikistan capital of Dushanbe.
“The SCO states express grave concern in connection with the recent tensions around the South Ossetian issue and urge the sides to solve existing problems peacefully, through dialogue, and to make efforts facilitating reconciliation and talks,†their statement said.
Russia sent troops into Georgia this month to crush an attempt by the country's pro-Western leaders to retake the Moscow-backed separatist region of South Ossetia.
Mr. Medvedev this week recognized South Ossetia and a second Georgian separatist region of Abkhazia as independent states, defying the West which has said Georgia's sovereignty over its territory must be respected.
So far, no country – even close allies who often line up with Moscow against the West – has given explicit support for the Russian move.
The declaration did, however, back the six-point ceasefire deal, brokered by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and acknowledged Russia's role in the Caucasus.
“The SCO states welcome the adoption in Moscow on August 12 of six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia and support Russia's active role in contributing to peace and co-operation in the region,†it said.
At the start of the summit, Mr. Medvedev told leaders from China, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan that Russia's action was a legitimate response to “irresponsible Georgian aggression against South Ossetia.â€
“We are thankful for your understanding and an objective assessment of Russia's peacemaking efforts,†Mr. Medvedev said.
“We are sure that the position of SCO members will get an appropriate international response. I hope it will serve as a serious signal for those, who try ... to justify the bloody adventure of the Georgian leadership,†he added.
Analysts said Russia faced an uphill struggle to win backing over Georgia from its fellow SCO members, many of which have separatist problems within their own borders.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080828.wrussasia0828/BNStory/International/home
Dan416
Senior Member
I blame the United States and NATO for opening up this Pandora's Box. Russia was more than happy to play it to their advantage. When Kosovo happened, you could tell Russia was not pleased and would strike back. The West's arrogance can be quite amusing if it wasn't so serious. The West needs to cut their losses now and say no more. As I've said before, it's tit for tat. If the West wants Russia to give up those two Georgian provinces, they better give Kosovo back to Serbia. If sovereign countries are sovereign, and the United States expects to be taken seriously, that's what has to happen. Lots of these countries have separatist problems, so it's a big issue and one which many will be watching closely.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I'd agree with you except for one quibble. Russia want's S. Ossetia for itself. It isn't looking to have those regions become independent. This would be like the West separating Kosovo and attaching it to Albania.
kEiThZ
Superstar
PUBLICATION: GLOBE AND MAIL
IDN: 082420226
DATE: 2008.08.29
PAGE: A15 (ILLUS)
BYLINE: MARCUS GEE
SECTION: Comment Column
EDITION: Metro
DATELINE:
WORDS: 741
WORD COUNT: 745
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia don't get no respect? That's because it shot itself in the foot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARCUS GEE mgee@globeandmail.com When Russia sent troops into Georgia earlier this month, it hoped to fire a shot across the bow of the encroaching West. In reality, it just shot itself in the foot.
Consider all that has happened since Moscow's brilliant coup in the Caucasus: * Georgia, the country it hoped to subdue, has emerged in international opinion as a victim of crude Russian aggression. Western leaders from Washington to Bonn have spoken out for Georgia's right to independence and territorial integrity.
* Ukraine, which Moscow had hoped to intimidate, has become keener than ever to join NATO and bind itself to the West to fend off Russia. In Kiev yesterday, Britain's Foreign Secretary led a chorus of Western support for Ukraine.
* Poland, ever wary of Russia, overcame months of hesitation and jumped to sign a deal to place U.S. missile-defence installations on its soil. Russia has battled this for years.
* Moscow's stock market plunged as investors took fright at the prospect of a new Cold War.
* China and several Central Asian countries snubbed Moscow's call for support over Georgia. Instead, the Shanghai Co-operation Organization, which the Kremlin helped create as a counterweight to Western institutions such as NATO and the European Union, denounced the use of force in a statement issued yesterday.
This is victory? Russia hoped to accomplish two things with its blow against Georgia.
The first was to show Georgia and other countries in what used to be the Soviet Union that Moscow was still boss and that they would be foolish to break free from its sphere of influence and ally themselves with the West. That has backfired spectacularly. Every independent country on Russia's periphery, from the Baltic to the Black Sea, is now seeking Western protection from the Russian bear.
The second objective was to stick a finger in the West's eye - payback, as the Kremlin saw it, for all the slights it has suffered since the end of the Cold War, from missile defence to the expansion of NATO into the former East Bloc to Western support for an independent Kosovo. At first, it seemed to succeed. Taken unawares by the Russian move, Western leaders could only bluster impotently as Russian tanks held (and still hold in some places) positions within Georgia, Washington's darling for its embrace of democracy and the West. You could almost hear the champagne corks pop in the Kremlin.
Ah, but the cost. NATO has suspended its dialogue with Russia.
There is talk of blocking its entry to the World Trade Organization and ejecting it from the Group of Eight. The whole strategy of trying to integrate Russia into the diplomatic, economic and security structures of the international community is under question as Western countries reassess their relationship with Russia in light of its brutishness in Georgia.
Russia's reputation lies in rags. Whatever hope it might have had of being accepted as a responsible power that plays by the rules has been set back years. In the eyes of the world, it is once again seen as it was in Soviet days: as a dangerous thug.
Does Russia care? Flushed with its triumph over the annoying gnat on its southern flank, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev say, in essence, that the West can go hang. Mr. Medvedev said this week it would be "no great loss" if NATO broke its relationship with Russia. And he says he's not worried about the threat of Western sanctions, either. And why, ask Russian nationalists, should he be? After all, Russia has oil, and the run-up in prices has left it sitting on a pile of cash.
But Russia is deluding itself if it thinks it can shrug off the world's opinion. These are not Soviet days, when a sprawling empire with a closed economy could exist in splendid isolation. If Moscow manages to achieve ostracism with its rogue behaviour, it will suffer real damage. The oil will dry up or fall to a saner price. Europe, now inclined to mute its criticism because it depends on Russian energy supplies, will find other sources. Investors will park their money somewhere else.
Instead of bringing it more power and wealth, Moscow's chest-thumping will only make it weaker and poorer. If the Kremlin was looking for respect when it took on Georgia, it chose an odd way to earn it.
ADDED SEARCH TERMS:
GEOGRAPHIC NAME: Russia; Georgia; Poland; Ukraine
SUBJECT TERM:foreign policy; foreign relations; strife; political
IDN: 082420226
DATE: 2008.08.29
PAGE: A15 (ILLUS)
BYLINE: MARCUS GEE
SECTION: Comment Column
EDITION: Metro
DATELINE:
WORDS: 741
WORD COUNT: 745
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russia don't get no respect? That's because it shot itself in the foot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MARCUS GEE mgee@globeandmail.com When Russia sent troops into Georgia earlier this month, it hoped to fire a shot across the bow of the encroaching West. In reality, it just shot itself in the foot.
Consider all that has happened since Moscow's brilliant coup in the Caucasus: * Georgia, the country it hoped to subdue, has emerged in international opinion as a victim of crude Russian aggression. Western leaders from Washington to Bonn have spoken out for Georgia's right to independence and territorial integrity.
* Ukraine, which Moscow had hoped to intimidate, has become keener than ever to join NATO and bind itself to the West to fend off Russia. In Kiev yesterday, Britain's Foreign Secretary led a chorus of Western support for Ukraine.
* Poland, ever wary of Russia, overcame months of hesitation and jumped to sign a deal to place U.S. missile-defence installations on its soil. Russia has battled this for years.
* Moscow's stock market plunged as investors took fright at the prospect of a new Cold War.
* China and several Central Asian countries snubbed Moscow's call for support over Georgia. Instead, the Shanghai Co-operation Organization, which the Kremlin helped create as a counterweight to Western institutions such as NATO and the European Union, denounced the use of force in a statement issued yesterday.
This is victory? Russia hoped to accomplish two things with its blow against Georgia.
The first was to show Georgia and other countries in what used to be the Soviet Union that Moscow was still boss and that they would be foolish to break free from its sphere of influence and ally themselves with the West. That has backfired spectacularly. Every independent country on Russia's periphery, from the Baltic to the Black Sea, is now seeking Western protection from the Russian bear.
The second objective was to stick a finger in the West's eye - payback, as the Kremlin saw it, for all the slights it has suffered since the end of the Cold War, from missile defence to the expansion of NATO into the former East Bloc to Western support for an independent Kosovo. At first, it seemed to succeed. Taken unawares by the Russian move, Western leaders could only bluster impotently as Russian tanks held (and still hold in some places) positions within Georgia, Washington's darling for its embrace of democracy and the West. You could almost hear the champagne corks pop in the Kremlin.
Ah, but the cost. NATO has suspended its dialogue with Russia.
There is talk of blocking its entry to the World Trade Organization and ejecting it from the Group of Eight. The whole strategy of trying to integrate Russia into the diplomatic, economic and security structures of the international community is under question as Western countries reassess their relationship with Russia in light of its brutishness in Georgia.
Russia's reputation lies in rags. Whatever hope it might have had of being accepted as a responsible power that plays by the rules has been set back years. In the eyes of the world, it is once again seen as it was in Soviet days: as a dangerous thug.
Does Russia care? Flushed with its triumph over the annoying gnat on its southern flank, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev say, in essence, that the West can go hang. Mr. Medvedev said this week it would be "no great loss" if NATO broke its relationship with Russia. And he says he's not worried about the threat of Western sanctions, either. And why, ask Russian nationalists, should he be? After all, Russia has oil, and the run-up in prices has left it sitting on a pile of cash.
But Russia is deluding itself if it thinks it can shrug off the world's opinion. These are not Soviet days, when a sprawling empire with a closed economy could exist in splendid isolation. If Moscow manages to achieve ostracism with its rogue behaviour, it will suffer real damage. The oil will dry up or fall to a saner price. Europe, now inclined to mute its criticism because it depends on Russian energy supplies, will find other sources. Investors will park their money somewhere else.
Instead of bringing it more power and wealth, Moscow's chest-thumping will only make it weaker and poorer. If the Kremlin was looking for respect when it took on Georgia, it chose an odd way to earn it.
ADDED SEARCH TERMS:
GEOGRAPHIC NAME: Russia; Georgia; Poland; Ukraine
SUBJECT TERM:foreign policy; foreign relations; strife; political
Dan416
Senior Member
You do realize that that's exactly what the Albanians in Kosovo would want right?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
And that's exactly what will happen. When Kosovo was declared independent, it was Albanian flags that the crowds were waving.
If it wasn't for the stupid aggressions of the Serbs, the west would have backed the Serbian hold on Kosovo. But the Albanians were smart, they slowing got a hold in Kosovo, and then through pure demographics pushed out the Serbs, and then took over.
It's only a matter of time until Kosovo joins Albania.