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Can Toronto trade Scarborough for Vaughan? For whatever reason Scarborough can't seem to play nice with the rest of Toronto.

Vaughan is getting a subway tunnel... all that traffic and 'density' along the way (farm fields)... but it's okay for Vaughan right?

Scarborough is about 4-5 times bigger than Vaughan population wise (100k vs 500k?) and substantially larger geographically... much larger tax base than Vaughan....
 
If the PC wins the next election I think I'll be supportive of the idea. Political games, particularly from the Conservative party, have held Toronto back for the past few decades. But if Toronto does become its own province I think that it would be wise to include all GTA municipalities in the province.

We also need to remember that if we do become our own province we will start having to pay for things like education, health care etc... The new province would almost certainly go into debt because of this.

but Toronto will stop subsidizing the rest of Ontario and will end up with a lot more revenue to pay for things like education and healthcare. Toronto apparently gets less funding than what it pays out to the province. Do you really think the rest of Ontario is paying for the education and healthcare of Torontonians?

I agree with you that that should include a large urban parts of GTA which are already integrated into Toronto.

As I said, it will be good for the new Ontario too as everything will not be so focused on Toronto and they may get a chance to grow.
 
Isn't it rather rare to find a city 'state' in isolation? There must be a need for some sort of hinterland, no? Otherwise, wouldn't NYC have ditched Albany and Buffalo a long time ago? L.A., California?

I would agree that Toronto needs far more taxation power and more proportional representation, not just in Queen's Park but at the federal level too... also, aside from PEI Canada's provinces are maybe a bit too large now that regions are developing, though I don't know that it makes much sense to chop up Ontario when most of the population are within spitting distance of Toronto anyway.
 
1. I'd be afraid of somebody like Rob Ford wielding premier-like powers.

2. The voters of Etobicoke are as much of a drag on an urban agenda as the voters of Listowel or Chatham.

3. The era when Toronto could cry poor because we sent out more money than we get back in is over. The province gave us $8.4B in transit expansion funds to spend exclusively within the confines of our city. This move, by itself, probably means that taxpayers in certain municipalities are subsidizing Torontonians rather than the other way around.
 
3. The era when Toronto could cry poor because we sent out more money than we get back in is over. The province gave us $8.4B in transit expansion funds to spend exclusively within the confines of our city. This move, by itself, probably means that taxpayers in certain municipalities are subsidizing Torontonians rather than the other way around.

how does that mean others are subsidizing Toronto? In coming to that conclusion, you need to compare the total fund Toronto handed over to Queen's Park and that it received from it. Don't you think the sales tax, income tax paid by Torontonians are being used on healthcare elsewhere as well?
 
I doubt this would ever happen, although there are some cities with a similar structure... Would be funny if it did though because the rest of ontario, who like to spend a lot of time griping about how toronto has everything, would be inclined to complain about how toronto would no longer be subsidizing their services and infrastructure.
 
Isn't it rather rare to find a city 'state' in isolation? There must be a need for some sort of hinterland, no? Otherwise, wouldn't NYC have ditched Albany and Buffalo a long time ago? L.A., California?

City states are certainly not unheard of in federations: Berlin, Bremen and Hamburg in Germany, Vienna in Austria, Madrid in Spain, etc. NYC had it's own statehood movement for quite some time. It seems much easier to create city states during periods of vast national transformation (like Berlin post-reunification, Madrid post-Franco) than it would be to shake up the federal structure once it's been well established (as in Canada, the US).

I would agree that Toronto needs far more taxation power and more proportional representation, not just in Queen's Park but at the federal level too... also, aside from PEI Canada's provinces are maybe a bit too large now that regions are developing, though I don't know that it makes much sense to chop up Ontario when most of the population are within spitting distance of Toronto anyway.

I agree. Ontario should devolve more powers to the City (or to some Metro-like pan-GTA body). The City of Toronto Act has certainly nudged us further along in that direction, and it is quite possible that we will (or should) see the Act further strengthened in the future.

There are certainly reasons why Toronto should remain in Ontario. For example, a huge chunk of Ontario's civil service is based here. We would not need to establish fairly expensive new bodies like a superior court, a securities regulator, a new health insurance plan, new student assistance plans, etc. The network of provincial highways and provincially-owned rail corridors through the GTA would not have to be chopped up and handed to their new, respective provinces.

And then there are fairly important questions that would need to be answered: how would a Province of Toronto be represented in the Senate? How would Ontario's debt be divided? Where would Ontario relocate its capital? How would a province whose economy is mostly based around services factor into equalization programs? How does the federal government become involved when regional transit becomes inter-provincial transit? Would a Province of Toronto maintain four separate publicly funded school systems? What protections and services would be provided to Toronto's relatively small Francophone population? What complications would arise for citizens looking to make the move across Steeles in either direction? Would they need to wait months to get new health insurance coverage? Creating a new province would certainly be a messy process.
 
Conservatives generally haven't done much for Toronto. Most seem to have a very anti-Toronto attitude.

I think you need a history lesson. Here are just a few easy to find things that the Conservatives have done for Toronto (And that's without going through my Ontario political history books to find more examples): Created the 400 series of highways (including funding for the Gardiner and DVP), Introduced anti-discrimination laws for gender, ethnic and racial equality (The Ontario Human Rights Code), Created the Planning Act specifically as a means of addressing growth in Toronto, created Metropolitan Toronto and gave it the power to tax real estate and borrow funds on its own. Established York University. Built Ontario Place & Ontario Science Centre. Provided much of the funding for the original sections of the Bloor-Danforth Line (and provided money for other subway expansion projects), Created the Ontario Heritage Foundation, Stopped the Spadina Expressway...

Yes, since the Harris years we've seen a fair bit of anti-Toronto sentiment, but that hasn't always been the case, and I think if you look at Red Tories like John Tory, you'd find that the Harris/Hudak leadership isn't the norm but rather the exception to the Conservative Party's relationship with the city.
 
Rather than create a whole new layer of government and agencies we should form a Toronto political party within the existing Ontario. The party would never rule the province but could provide the balance of power to whichever party we choose to govern the province and play nice with Toronto.
 
3. The era when Toronto could cry poor because we sent out more money than we get back in is over. The province gave us $8.4B in transit expansion funds to spend exclusively within the confines of our city. This move, by itself, probably means that taxpayers in certain municipalities are subsidizing Torontonians rather than the other way around.

Toronto gives far more then $8.4 billion to Ontario every year. And this one time investment dosen't change the fact that 99% of the time Toronto gives Ontario far more money then it gets back.
 
Toronto gives far more then $8.4 billion to Ontario every year. And this one time investment dosen't change the fact that 99% of the time Toronto gives Ontario far more money then it gets back.

Is there a good source where this is documented? I'd love to see some hard numbers about the relative contribution of Toronto to the rest of the province and vice-versa.
 
This notion that Toronto would be able to keep 'all' of its revenue without redistribution is incorrect. Ontario in the manufacturing hay days always subsidized other provinces, and if Toronto became its own province, we would have to do the same.

You have to look at both sides of the equation, and not simply assume the revenue generated would be spent 100% locally. Same concept as personal income tax and redistribution, the 'rich' will aways pay for the poor - price of living in a civilized society.
 
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