Tewder
Senior Member
Let the people of Brantford starve in the cold! Shame on them for not living in Toronto!!
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- Thread starter afransen
- Start date
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I haven't been able to find any. The closest that we'll ever get to an answer is a guess by an expert. We also need to remember that taxes are only a small portion of what Toronto gives Ontario.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I don't think that the people of Brantford would starve in the cold. But if Toronto did leave Ontario it would be a huge blow to Ontario's economy.
kkgg7
Banned
they can move to Toronto easily if that were the case.
Shame on those who would starve in the cold without subsidies from others, I would say.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
First of all, I didn't say "all of Ontario", I said certain municipalities. There was a time when Toronto could say - with some justification - that we paid more in than we got out*. This was also true for wealthy municipalities that did not demand a lot of provincial services per capita, like Mississauga, Waterloo, Ottawa, Oakville, etc.
The difference now is that all taxpayers (which, yes, includes Torontonians) have just given the city of Toronto $8.4B for a transit project (not including the billions they spent on a Spadina subway, etc., etc.) without asking the city to contribute a share that is even a fraction of that. You can argue about how far the benefits of that transit expansion extend, but from a traditional POV, the benefits of Eglinton and Sheppard accrue primarily to the residents of the City of Toronto. It's not that much different from building a baseball diamond in Wawa or a water filtration plant in Chatham or all the other local infrastructure projects that Torontonians constantly bitch that their tax dollars are supporting.
Even though I think it's impossible to do a comprehensive analysis of municipal winners and losers when it comes to funding and investment (see below), I think that there are cities in Ontario that are bigger "net subsidizers" than Toronto is these days.
*It's impossible to absolutely quantify the costs and benefits of wealth transfer. Sure, we can quantify the amount of tax money flowing out of the citizens and businesses of Toronto, but we can't measure the utility that those citizens and businesses derive from investments made in other places.
JWBF
Senior Member
Why not put the bounderies at the GTA?
Danielinthecity
Active Member
Huh?
A few points/questions...first...how can you argue that you CAN'T determine Toronto's contribution to the rest of the province (cause utility can't reasonably be measured), yet you then go on to say that Ontarian's "...have just given the city of Toronto $8.4B for a transit project..."
...how do you know that the net effect of provincial monies is not offset by (a) the greater proportion of monies flowing OUT of Toronto, and (b) the utility derived by those NOT living in Toronto?
If you can't determine the benefits that Torontonians give to the rest of the province, then how can you determine the benefits that the rest of the province gives to Torontonians?
Second question is how do you know that, "Torontonians constantly bitch" about their tax dollars supporting other jurisdictions? I've never heard that. I've only heard that we are tired of being everyone's whipping board and simply expect a fair share.
Third, on what basis do you, "...think that there are cities in Ontario that are bigger "net subsidizers" than Toronto is these days" if you say it can't reasonably be measured?
A few points/questions...first...how can you argue that you CAN'T determine Toronto's contribution to the rest of the province (cause utility can't reasonably be measured), yet you then go on to say that Ontarian's "...have just given the city of Toronto $8.4B for a transit project..."
...how do you know that the net effect of provincial monies is not offset by (a) the greater proportion of monies flowing OUT of Toronto, and (b) the utility derived by those NOT living in Toronto?
If you can't determine the benefits that Torontonians give to the rest of the province, then how can you determine the benefits that the rest of the province gives to Torontonians?
Second question is how do you know that, "Torontonians constantly bitch" about their tax dollars supporting other jurisdictions? I've never heard that. I've only heard that we are tired of being everyone's whipping board and simply expect a fair share.
Third, on what basis do you, "...think that there are cities in Ontario that are bigger "net subsidizers" than Toronto is these days" if you say it can't reasonably be measured?
Danielinthecity
Active Member
Couple more questions...
...what's a "Traditional POV"? And doesn't clean air and less congestion benefit BOTH those living within and without Toronto's boundaries?
Tewder
Senior Member
Hmmm, perhaps we could make Hamilton the capital of Ontario?? If nothing else the moving of Queen's Park to Hamilton might create a few jobs. Toronto's legislature could share space at NPS. Maybe the skate changing room could be converted? Without provincial funding it should only take about 300 years 
This is fun... or maybe when the condo boom collapses the legislature could be in a supertall penthouse??
This is fun... or maybe when the condo boom collapses the legislature could be in a supertall penthouse??
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
The 2005 Conference Board of Canada report to the City of Toronto pegged net annual outflow to provincial and federal coffers at around $11 billion (can't recall the breakdown).
But there are practical things to consider that may not make it such a juicy proposition. Assuming our portion of Ontario's debt. The cost of creating and maintaining a massive provincial bureaucracy above the scope of the existing municipal bureaucracy. Increased federal transfer payments, as the Province of Toronto would certainly be a "have" province.
And then there's the idea that do we really want to become that kind of society in Toronto....where we do this for the sole reason of saying "screw you" to the rest of Canadian society?
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
You're getting it mixed up. The cost can be measured (dollars). The utility (what satisfaction is derived from the project) is much more difficult, unless you believe in cardinal utility (I do not).
I don't, but, then again, $8.4B is a huge chunk of change. To make things simple, let's assume that the per capita tax revenue generated per person/business in Ontario is exactly the same in each municipality over 300,000 in Southern Ontario. It's a crude assumption, but let's go with it. Let's also assume that the per capita spending for basic provincial services (everything from healthcare to education to driver licensing) is exactly the same per head in these cities. So, let's only compare spending on city-specific projects that wouldn't be spent anywhere else, like an $8.4B investment in transit in Toronto.
The purpose of this experiment is to see whether other cities are getting a similar investment on a city-specific pet project that's equal to Toronto's $8.4B transit investment (I'm not including money already spent on the Spadina subway or on other Metrolinx projects) relative to size.
So, Toronto got $8,400,000,000 for this project to divide amongst 2,600,000 people. That works out to $3,230.76 per man, woman and child in the City.
So, analogously, did Ottawa (pop. 833,000) receive a $2.7B investment in any pet project? Nope. Did Mississauga (pop. 713k) get a $2.3B shot in the arm? No sir. Did Hamilton (pop. 520k) receive a $1.7B investment? No. Did Waterloo Region (pop. 507k) receive a $1.6B investment? They did receive $300M from the province for their LRT, but that's a far cry from what the province will spend on transit in the City of Toronto only, proportionally.
Of course, the $8.4B will be spread over a few years, but no matter how you slice and dice it, it is a lot of money. Torontonians have no recourse to say that we don't get enough money for transit expansion. $8.4B is probably a bigger amount of investment than the rest of Canada's rapid transit construction projects combined.
Why else are we having a thread about starting our own province? We aren't going to separate from Ontario because the rest of Canada hurts our feelings.
The Sheppard and Eglinton LRT are of very little regional benefit as rapid transit projects. They don't cross boundaries or respond to regional travel demand patterns. They don't go to where people are working or where they want to work or where they increasingly want to live (which is either the 905 or downtown Toronto). Accordingly, they won't solve congestion problems - which are based on regional travel patterns that these lines don't address.
Externalities like air pollution floating across municipal boundaries are a weak excuse for spending money on public transit. If I wanted to curb air pollution, I can think of better ways to spend 8.4 billion dollars.
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
Transit investment is distributed based on ridership, not population.
kkgg7
Banned
^ your per capita logic doesn't work. You are acting as if Toronto is a secluded city that only its own citizen get to enjoy the benefit.
Plus, did you also compare tax revenue per capita between Toronto and Ottawa etc.? Did you also think that many suburbs, although not part of the big cities, actually depend on the prosperity of the big city in many aspects? For example, what will Brampton and Markham be without Toronto? How many of their residents will lose jobs? What their life will be like?
Canada can live without Hamilton, Ottawa etc. It can't without Toronto - or at least the country will be significantly weaker and poorer.
Plus, did you also compare tax revenue per capita between Toronto and Ottawa etc.? Did you also think that many suburbs, although not part of the big cities, actually depend on the prosperity of the big city in many aspects? For example, what will Brampton and Markham be without Toronto? How many of their residents will lose jobs? What their life will be like?
Canada can live without Hamilton, Ottawa etc. It can't without Toronto - or at least the country will be significantly weaker and poorer.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I didn't say transit investment, I said investment in a city-specific project. For lack of a better way of assessing need, this should be doled out on a population basis.
Tewder
Senior Member
I don't believe Hipster is questioning the merit of the plan he is simply pointing out the benefit to the city. If Toronto separated it would have to fund that 8 billion itself, regardless whether GTAers are using it or not. This means there is a smaller base to spread the cost over.