[Whoaccio]

Okay, I fail to see how exactly this is a win for Toronto or the region. Governments are going to pick up 90% of the 1.5b of costs, plus any of the inevitable cost overruns, and in return we get an Olympic swimming pool, which wont even help us in any Olympic bid? As far as I can tell from looking through the bid book, the only new facilities this will entail are the Aquatic Center, the Sports Center and the PanAm stadium, none of which are in the downtown core or any prospective future Olympics venue and hence are essentially useless in that regard.

Even assuming UofT did need a new swimming center though, these games seem like a poor way to fund it. Only 50% of all expenses are going to capital costs, the rest are for operational expenses like security. So, right off the bat, our 1.5b "investment" is shrunk to 708m. That is horribly inefficient. Then there is the question of to what extent these facilities are being overbuilt. Fine, Toronto really should have high quality athletic infrastructure. For purely domestic purposes though, does UofT really need a pool capable of housing 10,000 spectators? Does Hamilton really need a 15,000 seat stadium? When in god's name has there ever been a need for a field hockey stadium with 5,000 seats?

We just had a massive round of government infrastructure spending, with a specific amount set aside for these kinds of recreational facilities. We would have been much better off simply lobbying for that and avoiding having to spend fifty cents out of every dollar on operational costs for the PanAm games.

 

[TOareaFan]

You could argue that the games are too costly for the benefit they provide but I think those making the "this is too small an event for Toronto" need to recognize that the base-line level of sporting infrastructure in this city, from community level to world events is not high. Think of it as parallel to the build up of cultural infrastructure over the last 5-years. I think this event provides a catalyst and time-line to re-think sport in this city and improve our infrastructure. We will hopefully come out as a better city for sport and one where people participate and have a better appreciation for excellence in sport. This is a real worthwhile legacy. I have never been to an olympic city where the glitzy architectural landmark stadium doesn't sit derelict and abandoned 10 years later.

I was agreeing with you right up to the end...there. I was in Atlanta earlier this year (13 years after the Olympics)....their stadium still looks pretty good (re-worked but still pretty good) and is in full use at least 81 times a year.....the Athens games were only 5 years ago but, given the level of current use, it is hard to imagine it will be abandoned and derelict in another 5.......similarly, Sydney's games were only 9 years ago but they better hurry and abandon this stadium in the next year of course there are a lot of events planned for there in 2010 that will have to be moved......of course Barcelona's Olympic stadium has just recently lost its football team tenant but if it is derelict someone better tell the athletes and and fans coming for the 2010 European Athletics Championship.......Seoul (1988...so a bit more than 10 years) stil has the stadium and it is still used (for soccer) but not a high profile team....does that qualify as abandoned and derelict?....Is the Colliseum (1984 and 1932) derelict and abandoned?....not sure.....Luzhniki Stadium (Moscow 1980) is still used for soccer and, in fact, hosted the 2008 Champions League final....so it still has not achieved the status of abandoned and derelict.....1976 was in Montreal.....I missed the memo that the Big Owe was abandoned......

I could, I guess, go on but I think I have just realized that I mis read your post and what you really meant to say was "have never been to an olympic city"

 

[DC83]

Hamilton

Not bad! Though I think it'll be more like....

Ron Lancaster Field at Lakeport Stadium

Labatt owns Lakeport and that would keep a local connection in Hamilton. Plus Lakeport Stadium doesn't sound bad at all, it's perfect really for a waterfront stadium.

I also really like Lakeport Stadium, but for naming rights, I think the 'bigger' name would be more $beneficial$ to to TiCats organization.

I'm so psyched as my place's property values are going to skyrocket! I'm a new North End resident, and can't wait for everything:
*New Stadium
*New PanAm Park (with a hopefully renovated Central Park, which was planned for both Commonwealth Games Bids)
*James North GO Station (and Via?)
*LRT A-Line from Downtown GO Centre to PanAm Park (via Hughson between Hunter & Cannon, then along James to Stuart, then West along Stuart to the Park/Stadium)

Projects likely to be Fast-Tracked:
*LRT (Stressing on Mac-Downtown B-Line, and Downtown-PanAm Park A-Line... hopefully the whole B-Line is Completed)
*Electrified GO (LS-West) between Union to Hamilton and into Niagara
*Piers 8-10 Reno ('Piazza') Plans -- Get ready for PanAmWingFest 2015!
*All of Hamilton Harbour Commission's Plans (incl new trails, paths, bikeways, etc)

Keeping my Fingers Crossed:
*Royal Connaught Plans reverted to a HOTEL rather than Affordable Housing
*At least one of the 'proposed' hotels gets built (most likely Bay/Main)
*Hamiltonians Start to Like their City

 

[jn_12]

Okay, I fail to see how exactly this is a win for Toronto or the region. Governments are going to pick up 90% of the 1.5b of costs, plus any of the inevitable cost overruns, and in return we get an Olympic swimming pool, which wont even help us in any Olympic bid? As far as I can tell from looking through the bid book, the only new facilities this will entail are the Aquatic Center, the Sports Center and the PanAm stadium, none of which are in the downtown core or any prospective future Olympics venue and hence are essentially useless in that regard.

Even assuming UofT did need a new swimming center though, these games seem like a poor way to fund it. Only 50% of all expenses are going to capital costs, the rest are for operational expenses like security. So, right off the bat, our 1.5b "investment" is shrunk to 708m. That is horribly inefficient. Then there is the question of to what extent these facilities are being overbuilt. Fine, Toronto really should have high quality athletic infrastructure. For purely domestic purposes though, does UofT really need a pool capable of housing 10,000 spectators? Does Hamilton really need a 15,000 seat stadium? When in god's name has there ever been a need for a field hockey stadium with 5,000 seats?

We just had a massive round of government infrastructure spending, with a specific amount set aside for these kinds of recreational facilities. We would have been much better off simply lobbying for that and avoiding having to spend fifty cents out of every dollar on operational costs for the PanAm games.

If you just look at cost, you're going to have trouble reconciling things. You speak as though none of these costs will be recouped through revenue, which is one thing that stimulus money cannot do on its own.

Hamilton's stadium is being discussed as a potential replacement for Ivor Wynne (however it will probably will need to be expanded after the games). The field hockey stadium can be converted to any number of things and U of T's aquatic centre will be used as a national centre of excellence as well as allowing us to host national and international meets, which bring additional benefits to the city. All of these facilities around the region can be used as national training centres which is a phenomenal opportunity. You'd be bringing a lot of highly skilled people (coaches, athletes, research and development) to the area with the potential of creating a lot of opportunities for youth.

For a small percentage of the cost of an olympics, we're essentially getting all of the necessary sporting infrastructure that is necessary to create a very strong sporting community. It's no different than investing in the arts or culture.

I should also add that while Toronto isn't going to see massive impacts, other places that will be hosting (like Hamilton, St Catharines and Welland) will get a really well-needed boost.

 

[Whoaccio]

If you just look at cost, you're going to have trouble reconciling things. You speak as though none of these costs will be recouped through revenue, which is one thing that stimulus money cannot do on its own.

Well, according to the Bid Book 90% of expenses will be publicly covered, and 10% will be covered by all revenue streams (Sponsorship, Ticketing, Licensing & Media) (page 184). I have no reason to believe revenues will be higher or costs would be lower than they anticipate.

Hamilton's stadium is being discussed as a potential replacement for Ivor Wynne (however it will probably will need to be expanded after the games). The field hockey stadium can be converted to any number of things and U of T's aquatic centre will be used as a national centre of excellence as well as allowing us to host national and international meets, which bring additional benefits to the city. All of these facilities around the region can be used as national training centres which is a phenomenal opportunity. You'd be bringing a lot of highly skilled people (coaches, athletes, research and development) to the area with the potential of creating a lot of opportunities for youth.

Hey, I've got nothing against building aquatics centers and generally improving sporting infrastructure, which is generally below par. Right off the bat though we are only getting fifty cents on the dollar with this spending. That is simply abysmal, period. I can't think of any other circumstances when we would tolerate instantly loosing 50% of our investment.

Call me skeptical, but I also doubt that if UofT had to pay for this themselves they would opt for a 10,000 seat swimming arena. They can barely fill Varsity Stadium for the Blues, and that is popular spectator sport in a great location. I just can't see any situation at all where they would draw twice as many people out to the boonies to watch people swim. Even in places like Australia nobody goes to watch swimming.

For a small percentage of the cost of an olympics, we're essentially getting all of the necessary sporting infrastructure that is necessary to create a very strong sporting community. It's no different than investing in the arts or culture.

When we invest in something like a new arts museum, we don't spend 50% of the costs on a two week celebration. Could you imagine if we grouped all of our cultural projects into some kind of Cultural Olympics, then spent half of the money on security, VIP treatment and broadcasting it to Curacao? It would be ridiculous, the entire art community would rightly claim that half of the money nominally meant for them was being diverted to a whole host of non-recurring things like bringing in RCMP officers from all over the country.

 

[MetroMan]

Okay, I fail to see how exactly this is a win for Toronto or the region. Governments are going to pick up 90% of the 1.5b of costs, plus any of the inevitable cost overruns, and in return we get an Olympic swimming pool, which wont even help us in any Olympic bid? As far as I can tell from looking through the bid book, the only new facilities this will entail are the Aquatic Center, the Sports Center and the PanAm stadium, none of which are in the downtown core or any prospective future Olympics venue and hence are essentially useless in that regard.

You clearly didn't read the entire bid book. Here's a comprehensive look at the highlights: http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=335779&postcount=528

There are more venues being built in downtown Toronto than the ones you mention and hosting the games grants us a mechanism for getting things done by a deadline. That mechanism is already showing benefits.

 

[MetroMan]

Where exactly at Ontario Place would the BMX facility go?

Here:http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=800+Richmond+St+W,+Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.631036,-79.412795&spn=0.007346,0.01177&t=h&z=17

The Eastern parking lot along the water bordering on Remembrance Drive.

 

[Whoaccio]

You clearly didn't read the entire bid book. Here's a comprehensive look at the highlights: http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=335779&postcount=528

There are more venues being built in downtown Toronto than the ones you mention and hosting the games grants us a mechanism for getting things done by a deadline. That mechanism is already showing benefits.

The only thing I missed was the BMX course, which really doesn't seem like a big deal at all. Everything else already exists, or is being pursued independently of the PanAm games like the Goldring Center. Other spending priorities, like subsidizing the renovation of Renaissance Hotel, strike me as down right idiotic. How much money is the government going to pump into that place?

 

[DC83]

Hotels

Here:http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=800+Richmond+St+W,+Toronto,+Toronto+Division,+Ontario,+Canada&ll=43.631036,-79.412795&spn=0.007346,0.01177&t=h&z=17

The Eastern parking lot along the water bordering on Remembrance Drive.

Also, isn't there a Hotel being built directly across Lake Shore Blvd from this site (at the Barracks or whatev)?

I say Who Cares if this is an event no one knows about in 2009... they're sure as hell gonna know about it come 2015! And I can guarantee this will just now finally start to garner some excitement!

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I think y'all are missing a huge factor...

... and that's the Athletic Village. Since this is $1bn out of a $2.4bn budget, it's an enormous piece of the puzzle -- much more than any one sports facility. By shortening the build-out of WDL by 15-20 years, and by being converted to property-tax revenue streams after the Games, this portion of the budget will be net positive for Toronto.

Of course, that's due to the fact that it's being funded by other government levels, but I'm all for my tax dollars going to my own pretty little park. My Calgarian brother might be less enthused, and my uncle in Stratford should be outright angry... but what the heck?

As for the U of T campus facilities (not counting Scarborough's new pool, as I don't know that campus at all), rest assured they'll be used practically 24/7 once the Games are over. That quadrangle is currently used by men's rugby and women's lax for practices, by students for campus rec, and by lots of other Varsity functions. (Staging ground for frosh week silliness, e.g.) I expect that some or all of the campus soccer that ruins the front yard of University College each fall will be moved there. UofT wins from this, I think.

I'm as skeptical as anyone on whether this is a good use of money, and I'm sure that it doesn't have a snowball's chance of turning a profit. But I've been turned favourable on it as I think (a) the costs are mostly going to things we need in a size we will use after the games and (b) precisely because it's a second-string event and won't disrupt my life too much or at all.

And (c), I now know rugby is one of the event -- which I never knew about the Pan-Ams -- so I will take in at least one set of events.

 

[MetroMan]

Also, isn't there a Hotel being built directly across Lake Shore Blvd from this site (at the Barracks or whatev)?

I say Who Cares if this is an event no one knows about in 2009... they're sure as hell gonna know about it come 2015! And I can guarantee this will just now finally start to garner some excitement!

Yes! Almost forgot about that. There goes a huge swath of parking lots and a nice densification of that North-South strip.

 

[MetroMan]

PanAm Comparable in size with the Olympics

The title may be a little deceiving but there is truth to it:

10,000 athletes are expected to compete in these games. In comparison, the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games had 10,500 athletes competing.

Also of note, the PanAm games serve as qualifiers for many of the sports (all Olympic sports are represented in the PanAm games) to go on to Rio2016 the following year.... so you can expect the likes of Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps competing in Toronto 2015.

 

[Dugmor]

My brother works in security at the CN Tower. It's info deriving from the "grapevine" but still reliable. The renovations of the base and its plaza were to begin in the spring of 2010 anyway but any dithering or delays will be eliminated because now there's a deadline.

Construction was estimated to last 20 months so we will probably see it complete by 2012/2013.

The base of the CN Tower will be a major gathering point during the games because of the ceremonies and sports being held at the SkyDome and the ACC. It'll be the CN Tower's chance to showcase their new plaza and base.

Do you know if there are any plans to fix up the exterior shaft of the tower? It's in pretty rough shape.

 

[jn_12]

They're spending $1bn to build the athlete's village, but at the same time that's a huge investment in public housing infrastructure, plus a good portion of that will be private, so they'll recoup some costs there.

Whoaccio - There are other benefits that are even more significant than tickets and sponsorships. For hotels, restaurants, shops etc. the hundreds of thousands expected visitors are going to have a huge impact. They're going to come here and spend money on hotel rooms and dinners and souvenirs and that's going to generate a lot of tax dollars. If the expected 250,000 visitors spend a conservative $1k each, that would have a pretty significant impact in a short time, no? Rio apparently had 700,000 visitors. Even half of that could be wonderful.

I'm going to be honest, I don't think a 10,000 seat pool makes tons of sense long term, but I'd like to see how it will be configured before making a decision on it. If it can be adapted to a 5,000 seat venue then great. Some of these numbers aren't set in stone either. It's just a proposal and designs and numbers can and probably will change. Fact is, either way it has the potential of being a world class venue/training facility, and that's never a bad thing in my books.

 

[MetroMan]

Do you know if there are any plans to fix up the exterior shaft of the tower? It's in pretty rough shape.

^ I haven't heard anything about that but I know they're removing the catwalk that was installed around the shaft of the tower near the bottom.

I agree: they need to either give the CN Tower a paint job to make it look uniform or clad it in an interesting material. Architectural concrete has long been out of fashion... SkyDome, this goes for you too.

By the way, where's the CN Tower thread? It's where we first discussed this. I did a search and couldn't find it.