[diminutive]

Nice, this must be the first case of preemptively claiming Godwin and then calling someone a Nazi.

Not sure why you say I was preemptively claiming Godwin when I was clearly responding to a post that had god full Godwin in decrying supposed "social security nazis" or something oxymoronic like that.

 

[salsa]

By now it's quite obvious that the two sides of this debate will never see eye-to-eye, so here is a compromise that I think would make everyone happy.


Forget a bid for the Games, Toronto should host a 'Fakelympics' | Matt Elliott

The Pan Am Games are over. With an assist from Kanye West, last night’s closing ceremony marked the end of a fun couple of weeks in Toronto that — sorry, haters — seemed to go pretty well.

So, obviously, because Toronto managed to pull off one multi-national sporting event, there’s immediately talk about hosting another, bigger one. After five previous failed bids, local politicians are again thinking about landing the Olympics.

It’s not that I’m opposed to the idea of Toronto ever hosting. I like sports and I like infrastructure. I even like that silly feeling of patriotism that swells up after someone who happens to be from the same country as me runs really fast.

But I dread the idea of another should-we-host-the-Olympics debate. It has the potential to be messy and divisive.

I recently spent some time in Boston, where fierce battle lines have been drawn between those in support of the city’s bid for the 2024 Games and those who want the whole thing scrapped. Toronto doesn’t need that. Without a clear mandate for a bid through a referendum, let’s steer clear.

Besides, there’s a clear alternative to hosting the Olympics. Instead of going out and spending lots of money in an attempt to land the real games, we could just pretend. Let’s set a deadline and act like we’re going to be the host city — even though we aren’t.

Let’s host the Fakelympics.

We’ll start by quickly developing the city’s port lands as an athletes’ village for the fake athletes. Make it a vibrant neighbourhood with affordable housing.

Then, to help people get to the fake events, let’s invest in a relief-line subway running from downtown up to Sheppard Avenue through the eastern part of the city.

And, of course, it would be embarrassing to bring in fake visitors for the Fakelympics if our parks aren’t well maintained and the public fountains don’t work. So let’s work to improve our public realm. More public art like that colourful Toronto sign in Nathan Phillips Square would be pretty neat.

And let’s make ongoing investments in cultural and recreational facilities across the city, to ensure a Fakelympic legacy.

Of course, the downside of the Fakelympics is that the real athletes of the world won’t ever show up. But that’s OK. Without them, we can avoid the extravagant and unnecessary expenses. No giant security fences needed.

And, in the end, Toronto will end up with the infrastructure and public services we need anyway — and a city we can be a little more proud of.

I like the sound of that. Fakelympic fever: catch it.

http://www.metronews.ca/views/toron...-games-toronto-should-host-a-fakelympics.html

 

[TOareaFan]

What I said was "Toronto will get a summer Olympics when it is the only city in a developed democratic nation to bid." We're not there yet, but there is a clear trend in functional democracies not to bid and to have very vocal opposition groups to deliberately screw up bids, like

How is this trend showing in the bidding for the games that Toronto just decided not to bid on. Paris, Hamburg, Rome, Los Angeles and Budapest appear to be the candidate cities. I don't know much about Hungary's current political situation but is it not fair to describe the other 4 cities as coming from functional democracies?

 

[MetroMan]

Not really. If Paris gets 2024 we'll be in a great position to bid for 2028... in just about the best position ever in fact! This is lots of time to plan a credible bid and build support (government, business and popular). We've had a flurry of interest and excitement here lately due to the PanAms but to expect a bid was a little unrealistic really given the short timeframe, the federal election and no real clear bid details. Tory is open to it though, clearly, and I'm sure the wheels are already starting to turn for a legitimate attempt at it! The special interest groups have won the day, no big surprise, but their peace of mind will be short lived.

We're out of favour with the COC now. They're going to pursue a 2026 Winter Games and Calgary is likely going to be Canada's candidate city. If they get it, no way would Toronto get to host 2028.

 

[Johnny Au]

Don't forget that Canada is still open for hosting the 2026 FIFA World Cup (which means that Toronto would host a few games).

 

[Kat_YYZ]

We're out of favour with the COC now. They're going to pursue a 2026 Winter Games and Calgary is likely going to be Canada's candidate city. If they get it, no way would Toronto get to host 2028.

I think it's too soon to give another Winter Olympics to Canada, after Vancouver 2010. I even think that was a factor for 2024, even though those would be Summer. I know they gave it to China for Winter 2022 (so soon after 08), but they were not in the hosting picture for so long. Plus they have a billion people.

And that's why I really didn't want to see a Toronto 2024 bid. Imagine spending all that time and money on a bid when the IOC is thinking "nah, we won't give it to Canada again so soon." It means you could have the best bid and still not win -- for political reasons. That would suck, means you did it all for nothing, you were at a disadvantage from the start... for something you can't control.

 

[MetroMan]

Our 2008 bid paid for itself over and over and over again. We got Waterfront Toronto and $1.5B in seed money out of it.

So even if we hadn't been selected, a bid would've been worth it.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I haven't read most of the last few pages but I'm curious about this - why the distinction between arts and sports? Why are professional artists more deserving of government support than professional athletes? They have pretty much the same economic and cultural impacts, they both inspire youth to better themselves, and both consist of elite professionals performing feats for our entertainment that most of us could never do.

Fair question. I believe that we already are funding Canadian amateur athletes to the point they can have quasi-professional lifestyles, i.e. they can train more or less 100% of the time. I also don't have a problem with funding acting troupes in the same manner. However, I don't think we should be funding David Mirvish to build a theatre nor should we be funding Cirque de Soleil to build out their new show.

But the other thing that is Olympics-specific is the egregiousness of the waste, and the way the waste is almost 100% borne by governments. I don't know how much Toronto/Ontario/Canada may have helped fund the Four Seasons Opera house, but I hope it was minimal. However, it will be used for decades to host COC and other events.

In the case of Olympic stadia, even with the most desperate attempts to paint lipstick on the various pigs, we would have been be left, after wasting BILLIONS of dollars on security and logistics, with a billion-dollar track and field stadium, a second new aquatic centre with more seats, and -- I'm assuming -- a second round-and-round bike track with more seats, when no one in North America track cycles.

So -- I don't have a problem with funding the Canadian basketball team to go to FIBA, or an acting troupe to tour Europe. I have an issue, specifically, with hosting very large, corrupt, billion dollar spectacles, and I can't think of an arts festival that is funded by any of our governments to the tune of millions of dollars, much less billions.

TL; DR -- Olympics, specifically, suck money like a black hole.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Our 2008 bid paid for itself over and over and over again. We got Waterfront Toronto and $1.5B in seed money out of it.

So even if we hadn't been selected, a bid would've been worth it.

WT was funded due to the 2008 Olympics? Link? Evidence?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

WT was funded due to the 2008 Olympics? Link? Evidence?

It was contemplated and funded due to the synergistic effect of the Olympic Bid prioritizing waterfront development.

The role of waterfront redevelopment made some observers wonder if the city wasn’t so much going for the Olympics as a spectacle as much as a lever to finally fix the age-old problem. The Waterfront Revitalization Task Force headed by Robert Fung ran concurrently with the major stages of the bid. When all three levels of government agreed to fund the games, they also promised to back waterfront renewal regardless of TO-Bid’s success. This ultimately led to what some might argue is the 2008 bid’s permanent legacy: Waterfront Toronto.

http://torontoist.com/2015/07/bidding-for-the-summer-olympics/

It wasn't some magic manna that had fallen from the sky because Toronto just decide to do something about the issue on its' own.

But the other thing that is Olympics-specific is the egregiousness of the waste, and the way the waste is almost 100% borne by governments. I don't know how much Toronto/Ontario/Canada may have helped fund the Four Seasons Opera house, but I hope it was minimal. However, it will be used for decades to host COC and other events

It wasn't minimal (though it was certainly cheap relative to international standards) - that was part of the Big 6 Cultural Renaissance of the early 2000s. Interesting how this whole theme of "minimalism" runs through the vein - is it any wonder why we nickle and dime over the everything? It's all about outlook and attitude.

AoD

 

[animatronic]

Fair question. I believe that we already are funding Canadian amateur athletes to the point they can have quasi-professional lifestyles, i.e. they can train more or less 100% of the time. I also don't have a problem with funding acting troupes in the same manner. However, I don't think we should be funding David Mirvish to build a theatre nor should we be funding Cirque de Soleil to build out their new show.

But the other thing that is Olympics-specific is the egregiousness of the waste, and the way the waste is almost 100% borne by governments. I don't know how much Toronto/Ontario/Canada may have helped fund the Four Seasons Opera house, but I hope it was minimal. However, it will be used for decades to host COC and other events.

In the case of Olympic stadia, even with the most desperate attempts to paint lipstick on the various pigs, we would have been be left, after wasting BILLIONS of dollars on security and logistics, with a billion-dollar track and field stadium, a second new aquatic centre with more seats, and -- I'm assuming -- a second round-and-round bike track with more seats, when no one in North America track cycles.

So -- I don't have a problem with funding the Canadian basketball team to go to FIBA, or an acting troupe to tour Europe. I have an issue, specifically, with hosting very large, corrupt, billion dollar spectacles, and I can't think of an arts festival that is funded by any of our governments to the tune of millions of dollars, much less billions.

TL; DR -- Olympics, specifically, suck money like a black hole.

I have slightly more sympathy for public money funding something like a cfl stadium in Regina because it's an important piece of civic infrastructure and the public owns the team. Toronto and Calgary should be on their own.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

How is a stadium an "important civic infrastructure" in one city (33K seating in a city of 200K, at that, publicly funded to the tune of 2/3, remaining 1/3 to be covered by a loan from the province to be recouped through tickets, with project risk borne by the public) and not in another with what, 12x the population (30x regionally)?

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

Fair question. I believe that we already are funding Canadian amateur athletes to the point they can have quasi-professional lifestyles, i.e. they can train more or less 100% of the time. I also don't have a problem with funding acting troupes in the same manner. However, I don't think we should be funding David Mirvish to build a theatre nor should we be funding Cirque de Soleil to build out their new show.

But the other thing that is Olympics-specific is the egregiousness of the waste, and the way the waste is almost 100% borne by governments. I don't know how much Toronto/Ontario/Canada may have helped fund the Four Seasons Opera house, but I hope it was minimal. However, it will be used for decades to host COC and other events.

About a 3rd of the $181 million construction cost came from the Province and the Feds. The land in the budget was valued at $31 million and was donated by the Province and the Feds wrote a cheque for $25 million. It is, of course, appropriate because we know that Opera is a public service provided to the public with no admission fees and performed by artists who are in it for the art and receive no remuneration. On whole, the public is far more interested in the arts than sports so it is a prudent use of public funds

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

About a 3rd of the $181 million construction cost came from the Province and the Feds. The land in the budget was valued at $31 million and was donated by the Province and the Feds wrote a cheque for $25 million. It is, of course, appropriate because we know that Opera is a public service provided to the public with no admission fees and performed by artists who are in it for the art and receive no remuneration. On whole, the public is far more interested in the arts than sports so it is a prudent use of public funds

I have no problem with funding the Opera House, or the ROM, etc. In fact, I am rather ashamed that it took us how many years to argue endlessly, ditch multiple plans and finally build that house - and build it on the cheap we did.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

WT was funded due to the 2008 Olympics? Link? Evidence?

When we bid for the Olympics, the Mayor, the Premier and the Prime Minister held a now quite legendary press conference at the end of Front Street to announce that they were putting in the bank a sum of $1.5B (1/3 from each of them) to fund 3 projects that they "guaranteed" would take place and be complete by the opening ceremonies in 2008 whether or not we won the games. One of them was completed albeit a bit late (the second subway platform at Union) one was outright cancelled (the Front Street extension) and the funds re-allocated (whatever that means) and one I have no idea about (cleaning up the mouth of the Don River).

So, yes, just the bid for the 2008 games netted Toronto far more investment than the cost of the bid itself. Maybe that should be Toronto's strategy....pretend to the Province and the Feds that they are bidding in earnest and get some cash, fail to win and re-allocate the funds later.