[Admiral Beez]

Well then Toronto must get some pretty good word of mouth, because according to the airport arrivals tourist/overnight numbers, we're right behind NYC

Yes, and I think that's because huge numbers of people come to Toronto to visit family and friends. NYC on the otherhand attracts, I think, people who know no one, but are visiting the city for itself.

Think about it, if you lived in England, Germany, Spain, etc, and wanted to travel to a North American city to see live theatre, would you go to Broadway, NYC or Toronto? Heck, even in Toronto we promote our theatre by a show's previous success on Broadway.

 

[pman]

sad but true

What's holding us back? Simple. Canada *add little flag above the last a*

It's true Canada is holding Toronto back - the federal government takes between $20 billion and $25 billion a year more from Ontario in taxes than it sends back in spending and transfers. A large part of that comes from Toronto. And it's certainly true that if Toronto tax dollars stayed in Toronto, instead of being spent in Quebec and the other welfare provinces, we could make some impressive investments in city building.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on ever seeing the situation change. Whatever the party in power in Ottawa, and however we have voted in the past, it's been good national politics for Ottawa to treat Toronto as nothing more than a tax farm. Given the strong national antipathy to Toronto - translation, they hate us - it's hard to see how the situation will ever change.

So here's a simple suggestion - let's toss the useless baggage overboard and make Ontario a separate country. At 13 million plus people, we'd be larger than many successful European states, and assuming continued membership in Nafta, it's hard to see much economic dislocation. I know, I know, the banks...but increasingly Toronto-based banks and lifecos operate in a North American and (for the lifecos anyway) global economic space. Their head offices wouldn't go anywhere.

 

[TOareaFan]

It's true Canada is holding Toronto back - the federal government takes between $20 billion and $25 billion a year more from Ontario in taxes than it sends back in spending and transfers. A large part of that comes from Toronto. And it's certainly true that if Toronto tax dollars stayed in Toronto, instead of being spent in Quebec and the other welfare provinces, we could make some impressive investments in city building.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on ever seeing the situation change. Whatever the party in power in Ottawa, and however we have voted in the past, it's been good national politics for Ottawa to treat Toronto as nothing more than a tax farm. Given the strong national antipathy to Toronto - translation, they hate us - it's hard to see how the situation will ever change.

So here's a simple suggestion - let's toss the useless baggage overboard and make Ontario a separate country. At 13 million plus people, we'd be larger than many successful European states, and assuming continued membership in Nafta, it's hard to see much economic dislocation. I know, I know, the banks...but increasingly Toronto-based banks and lifecos operate in a North American and (for the lifecos anyway) global economic space. Their head offices wouldn't go anywhere.

Just to understand, is it your premise that Toronto's fiscal imbalance with Ottawa is not replicated at the provincial level? That the other world global cities do not have a fiscal imbalance with their own central governments? (I don't know the answer to this, just asking....do London and NY benefit from their national governments allowing to fully reap the benefits of their financial clout?)

 

[pman]

good question ToareaFan

The honest answer is that I don't know about London and NYC's fiscal positions with respect to their national governments. I do know that it's been UK tax and regulatory policy to promote London as an international financial centre for at least a generation, while the Government of Canada designated Montreal and Vancouver as international financial centres while Mulroney was in power, but not Toronto. I'm reasonably sure that Sydney Paris, and Berlin are not massive net contributors to their respective national governments, though I'm prepared to be corrected.

However, I'm not sure it follows that Toronto can aspire to global status while continuing to bleed tax dollars, just because London and New York could be net contributors to their respective national governments. Those cities enjoy the benefits of a scale and history that we can't begin to duplicate in Toronto. Furthermore, they continue to benefit from a long history of investment in infrastructure, as well as institutional capital, that took place before the massive post WW2 expansion of central governments.

 

[Tewder]

Are you joking? Toronto is a much more global city than San Francisco. Look at any ranking done on it (like the 3 rankings in the link I posted above) and Toronto will be much higher than San Fran. You think a global city is solely based on whether tourists want to come there? It's based on many things such as political and business power and many other factors. Toronto is more important than San Francisco in almost every way possible.

I agree with this. Toronto is also more important than Chicago, Toronto being a national financial/corporate and media centre while Chicago is only a regional one that competes with other larger US cities.

I think it is fairly self-evident that Toronto is an important global city, even if it doesn't really often look or act like one, or even perceive itself to be one. It's just that whole identity crisis thing that always makes Toronto seem like the lanky ackward guy at the party who just doesn't know yet how hot he is. In this sense a little grooming and attitude will go a long way.

 

[Second_in_pie]

It's true Canada is holding Toronto back - the federal government takes between $20 billion and $25 billion a year more from Ontario in taxes than it sends back in spending and transfers. A large part of that comes from Toronto. And it's certainly true that if Toronto tax dollars stayed in Toronto, instead of being spent in Quebec and the other welfare provinces, we could make some impressive investments in city building.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on ever seeing the situation change. Whatever the party in power in Ottawa, and however we have voted in the past, it's been good national politics for Ottawa to treat Toronto as nothing more than a tax farm. Given the strong national antipathy to Toronto - translation, they hate us - it's hard to see how the situation will ever change.

So here's a simple suggestion - let's toss the useless baggage overboard and make Ontario a separate country. At 13 million plus people, we'd be larger than many successful European states, and assuming continued membership in Nafta, it's hard to see much economic dislocation. I know, I know, the banks...but increasingly Toronto-based banks and lifecos operate in a North American and (for the lifecos anyway) global economic space. Their head offices wouldn't go anywhere.

I totally agree with the first two paragraphs. But that's true with most large cities. Maybe Toronto gets milked a bit too much, but the GGH makes up 1/4 of the Canadian population, and probably somewhere around 1/3 of the economy. The thing that I have beef with is how the wealth is redistributed, which is done in the stupidest way possible.

I don't think that Ontario should break away from Canada just the same way I don't think that Quebec should break away. But I do think that things should be a lot more decentralized. The feds should still be there to coordinate things like the military, helping out the territories and generally keeping the country in check. But the provinces should be expected to be a lot more independent. Maybe in that case, Northern Ontario could be dropped out of Ontario.
If the Provinces got a lot more control over what happens, that'd be good for Quebec, which would be able to pursue keeping French-Canadian culture. Southern Ontario would be able to invest in our cities, and perhaps evening the population to more places outside the GGH. Northern Ontario could focus on improving it's infrastructure, as well as it's economy and population. Alberta would be able to further develop into energies, and maybe without having the feds with such a big cushion out it'll encourage Alberta to diversify it's economy more.
And the feds would sort of be a 3rd party; stepping in to solve disputes or get things done quickly between the provinces, as well as representing Canada nationally. I think that with this there would actually a lot less tensions between the provinces, and we could actually be brought together more as a country. I mean, if Quebec could manage itself like a demi-country, there'd be a lot less tension between them and the other provinces.

So I guess my dream model for Canada would be a mix of EU (European Union, not Etats Unis,) and US styles. The provinces would have a lot more representation than in the US, but we'd be much, much more unification as a country than the EU.

 

[pman]

good idea

Perhaps Second_in Pie's post gives us a viable way forward. Given their strong nationalist feelings, a vast majority of quebecois may agree to a tradeoff where we don't pay them anymore and they get sovereignty in return. Without Quebec's demands, the equalization racket would probably die a well-deserved death. I suppose the question is how we even have that debate, since all federal parties seem to oppose anything like sovereignty-association for Quebec.

 

[kEiThZ]

Torontonians are holding us back. I just don't think Torontonians in general (not on this board) have sufficient civic pride to get things moving. Where is the drive to demand a better deal from other levels of government? Where is the desire to have a beautiful city with tasteful streetscapes? That the city has become a contender to be a global city is sheer luck. If the Separatists hadn't traded Montreal's economic future for their dreams, it's highly unlikely Toronto would even be Canada's powerhouse today. Forget being a global city, our pre-eminence as a national city could be threatened as Montreal and Vancouver race to catch-up. We rested on our laurels for too long.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Forget being a global city, our pre-eminence as a national city could be threatened as Montreal and Vancouver race to catch-up. We rested on our laurels for too long.

An interesting analogue to Toronto would be Munich. Munich is probably not as globally important as Toronto, but it's less worldly by a matter of degrees rather than magnitudes. Similarly, it is a large city in a fairly decentralized country that has a smattering of equally-sized centres that are just as, or more important than Munich: Frankfurt is the transportation gateway and financial capital while Berlin is the government centre and the cultural heart of the country. Even Hamburg (which is the least threatening of the 4 big German cities to Munich) has its publishing houses and port. My uncle (who lived for a period of time in Munich) and always lived in Southern Germany once went on about how Munich is a "Weltstadt" (World City) pointing out that it has the 2nd busiest airport in the country (still busier than YYZ) and is home to companies like Allianz, BMW, etc. It's an almost touchingly Torontonian response, as if when challenged, we bring out facts like how Canadian banks are taking over the US and how our film festival is now the 2nd largest in the world after Cannes and how Broken Social Scene is here - factoids that aren't going to interest anyone who hasn't already noticed. Also, like Toronto, Munich tried to assert itself on the world stage with the '72 Olympics. Toronto failed to get the Olympics but then again, the Munich Olympics were marred by terrorist attacks and didn't exactly leave a favourable world impression. More recently, the rise of Berlin has stolen a lot of thunder from Munich, which used to pride itself as being the cultural centre of West Germany.

Toronto is in the same boat: it's the financial powerhouse, but the nerve centre of Canada's growth industry (energy) undoubtedly belongs to Calgary. The 8 million Francophones of Canada don't recognize Toronto as their cultural centre, nor should they. Vancouver is quickly growing in importance and, while they are still well behind us, we can increasingly see them in the rear-view mirror. Being the gateway to Asia and having an Olympics is probably not hurting their cause. This decentralization has created regional centres that are forces to be reckoned with: the difference of importance between Toronto and Montreal, Vancouver or even Calgary is less than the difference between New York versus Atlanta, Phoenix or Seattle. While other mid-sized countries have put all of their energy to asserting themselves through one centralized city (Buenos Aires, Bangkok, Paris, Seoul, Cairo) we have at least 3 cities that compete with each other, and none of them is so much smaller in importance from the rest that they will drop out of this race.

 

[afransen]

I'm skeptical about that ranking. Apparently San Francisco is less significant than Auckland, NZ, the largest city (quite small) in a flyspeck country in the middle of nowhere. Even Sydney is probably overstated. It's not in the same league as HK, Tokyo and Paris.

 

[urbanboom]

What I disagree with that sentiment is that the rise of other cities cause the fall of others. Just because one city gains promenance and better quality of life doesn't hurt the other cities of the same country. In fact, I'd argue that the opposite happens. Since Toronto's growth since the 70s, Montreal has grown too. Few would argue that that city has fallen since that time. Perhaps in statistical lists, but not really in anyplace else.

And I highly doubt Vancouver will be nibbling at our alpha dog status any time soon. The region in which it's situated simply doesn't have the location or the population for that. One must remember that Germany is a physically very small country. Having the main city of the country very physically isolated from where the vast majority of the country lives, by literally many thousand kilometers is unrealistic.

Torontonians are demanding more and more and civic pride is the highest I've ever seen it. Personally, I think we're moving in the right direction. Are things perfect as is? Of course not. But that shouldn't be a reason to trumpet the four horsemen of the apocalypse. I think we should continue to grow much as we have and make the necessary investments where needed, be it financial sector or infrastructure.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... we must've done something right.

 

[afransen]

An interesting analogue to Toronto would be Munich. Munich is probably not as globally important as Toronto, but it's less worldly by a matter of degrees rather than magnitudes. Similarly, it is a large city in a fairly decentralized country that has a smattering of equally-sized centres that are just as, or more important than Munich: Frankfurt is the transportation gateway and financial capital while Berlin is the government centre and the cultural heart of the country. Even Hamburg (which is the least threatening of the 4 big German cities to Munich) has its publishing houses and port. My uncle (who lived for a period of time in Munich) and always lived in Southern Germany once went on about how Munich is a "Weltstadt" (World City) pointing out that it has the 2nd busiest airport in the country (still busier than YYZ) and is home to companies like Allianz, BMW, etc. It's an almost touchingly Torontonian response, as if when challenged, we bring out facts like how Canadian banks are taking over the US and how our film festival is now the 2nd largest in the world after Cannes and how Broken Social Scene is here - factoids that aren't going to interest anyone who hasn't already noticed. Also, like Toronto, Munich tried to assert itself on the world stage with the '72 Olympics. Toronto failed to get the Olympics but then again, the Munich Olympics were marred by terrorist attacks and didn't exactly leave a favourable world impression. More recently, the rise of Berlin has stolen a lot of thunder from Munich, which used to pride itself as being the cultural centre of West Germany.

Toronto is in the same boat: it's the financial powerhouse, but the nerve centre of Canada's growth industry (energy) undoubtedly belongs to Calgary. The 8 million Francophones of Canada don't recognize Toronto as their cultural centre, nor should they. Vancouver is quickly growing in importance and, while they are still well behind us, we can increasingly see them in the rear-view mirror. Being the gateway to Asia and having an Olympics is probably not hurting their cause. This decentralization has created regional centres that are forces to be reckoned with: the difference of importance between Toronto and Montreal, Vancouver or even Calgary is less than the difference between New York versus Atlanta, Phoenix or Seattle. While other mid-sized countries have put all of their energy to asserting themselves through one centralized city (Buenos Aires, Bangkok, Paris, Seoul, Cairo) we have at least 3 cities that compete with each other, and none of them is so much smaller in importance from the rest that they will drop out of this race.

Yeah, but Montreal and Vancouver are the LA and Chicago of Canada, not the Phoenix or Seattle. An analogue for Seattle might be Winnipeg or Ottawa: a part of the country that most people don't think about very much (except Ottawa's role as the capital).

 

[Hipster Duck]

^but of course, the United States is ten times the size. Behemoths like China and the US can get away with having multiple world cities. A large country like Germany can sort of get away with this, but Canada has no chance. Given our size, I'm amazed that we can put a beta and two gamma cities together.

 

[urbanboom]

^but of course, the United States is ten times the size. Behemoths like China and the US can get away with having multiple world cities. A large country like Germany can sort of get away with this, but Canada has no chance. Given our size, I'm amazed that we can put a beta and two gamma cities together.

I guess we're just more of an urban nation than we give credit. Christopher Hume has been ranting about this for years.

 

[Cooool]

Surely Toronto isn't more important than Chicago. Chicago outranks Toronto is virtually every aspect.

It's a global financial center too. Toronto is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Financial_Centres_Index