thedeepend said:
God Toronto's ugly.
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Why? I don't see litter on the street, tags or graffiti on the walls, I don't see homelessness, drunks or pushers, I don't see decrepit or bad maintained buildings,I don't see overflowing trash bins, I don't see double parking... Now, if you don't like Toronto's architecture is one things, but please the next time refrain from call my city ugly, because it's not, and you clearly never see or lived in a ugly city.
 
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It's not ugly, but it's not very pretty either. It's rough around the edges, in many places scuzzy, and generally looks unplanned, haphazard and disorganized. Have a look at cities like Boston, where the downtown is so...composed it's almost comical. Nonetheless, it's a comparison point, and Toronto is very messy compared to it.
 
Bad Bear said:
Why? I don't see litter on the street, tags or graffiti on the walls, I don't see homelessness, drunks or pushers, I don't see decrepit or bad maintained buildings,I don't see overflowing trash bins, I don't see double parking... Now, if you don't like Toronto's architecture is one things, but please the next time refrain from call my city ugly, because it's not, and you clearly never see or lived in a ugly city.
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Nope, none of those things. Just an incoherent mess of mediocre to bad buildings.

Btw, its not your city.

Further, many of the paranoid anti-urban imagos you're throwing up: drunks, pushers, graffiti, "overflowing" trash bins, and um, double parking, have very little to do with the aesthetic definition of ugliness, and quite a bit to do with your adherence to a set of principles mainly derived from the suburban propagandists of the 1960s. You could throw "dirty hippies" in there for old time sake if you like.
 
thedeepend said:
Nope, none of those things. Just an incoherent mess of mediocre to bad buildings.
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Yawn. That's just your opinion, bud.

thedeepend said:
Btw, its not your city.
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Since I live here, I work here, I enjoy my time here, I pay my taxes here, I'm pretty sure that yes, it's my city too.

thedeepend said:
Further, many of the paranoid anti-urban imagos you're throwing up: drunks, pushers, graffiti, "overflowing" trash bins, and um, double parking, have very little to do with the aesthetic definition of ugliness
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Paranoid anti-urban imagos? Why should I be anti-urban? I come from a city 100 times more urban than Toronto, so don't try to paint me as a anti-downtown suburbanite. Actually, those things have a lot to do with the "aesthetic definition of ugliness", a overflowing bin can objectively make a street ugly, unpleasant. A graffiti on a church can make objectively a street ugly. Cars illegally parked can make a street looks messy. Perhaps you don't have a clue of what I'm talking about because probably you never left cozy Canada.

thedeepend said:
and quite a bit to do with your adherence to a set of principles mainly derived from the suburban propagandists of the 1960s. You could throw "dirty hippies" in there for old time sake if you like.
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LOL you're waaay off, since I wasn't even born in this country, and where I come from there is not such thing as a "suburban propaganda" because... well, there is not such thing as a suburb (at least not the same type of sprawled suburbs you can find in North America). And I don't have any problem with "dirty hippies", you must have me confused with someone else. Sorry, try again bud.

p.s. btw, you're the guy that just compared Scotia Plaza to an open zipper, I'm not sure I can't take you seriously ;)
 
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I know a fair bit about aesthetics, but I've never come across a 'definition' of ugliness--or, at least, not one that has ever survived scrutiny unscathed. Perhaps for that very reason it's possible for reasonable people to disagree about whether the city is beautiful or ugly, given that it's highly likely they have different ideas of what these terms actually mean.

When I came back to Toronto after living in the States for a number of years, for example, I both found it uglier than I had before, but also more beautiful--because it felt like home again.
 
Bad Bear said:
Actually, those things have a lot to do with the "aesthetic definition of ugliness", a overflowing bin can objectively make a street ugly, unpleasant. A graffiti on a church can make objectively a street ugly. Cars illegally parked can make a street looks messy. Perhaps you don't have a clue of what I'm talking about because probably you never left cozy Canada.
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I'm not sure i agree. I've seen 'unkempt' cities that are so unbelievably beautiful. Rome springs to mind as an example. Some areas are covered in graffiti and garbage yet still somehow aesthetically engaging.

Toronto is ugly in many areas in ways beyond upkeep. Subjective of course but commonly enough believed that this is not a fringe opinion. Hometown pride or nostalgia will always tint things rosy but at UT we do try to reach a little beyond these kinds of personal feelings... also, i'm not suggesting that Toronto is ugly in its entirely. There are some very beautiful areas, streets, buildings to enjoy amongst the greater sea of mediocrity, and especially in the autumn colours!! The frustration is that Toronto does have some beautiful bones it just doesn't really seem to care to truly capitalize on them in the way other major cities comparable to Toronto do. I hope to see this change, and in fact do see some signs it is.
 
TrickyRicky said:
For the record thedeepend, I think your post is the problem here. Bad Bear's response was facilitated by that post.
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My post had nothing whatsoever to do with Mr. Bear or anyone for that matter, so why he's taking it so hard i'm not sure.

Anyway there really wasn't any need for his outburst of ungrammatical melodrama about my impugning the chaste and unsullied garbage-free environs of "his" city.
 
thedeepend said:
My post had nothing whatsoever to do with Mr. Bear or anyone for that matter, so why he's taking it so hard i'm not sure.

Anyway there really wasn't any need for his outburst of ungrammatical melodrama about my impugning the chaste and unsullied garbage-free environs of "his" city.
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I've been able to speak English on a daily basis for about one year now, so you would excuse me if my syntax skills are not great like yours. Your effort to look smart by carefully choosing your words and at the same time your attempt to humiliate me for my poor grammar really tell me what kind of person you really are. You are full of yourself and your posts are empty of any strong argument.

You didn't even tried to make a constructive dialogue with me, but instead you choose to insult me and my supposed lack of knowledge of "western aesthetics".
 
Bad Bear said:
You didn't even tried to make a constructive dialogue with me, but instead you choose to insult me and my supposed lack of knowledge of "western aesthetics".
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"Now, if you don't like Toronto's architecture is one things, but please the next time refrain from call my city ugly, because it's not, and you clearly never see or lived in a ugly city."

Yea, that's really the kind of remark I want to seriously engage with.
 
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