[TOareaFan]

Similar pricing or slightly higher I would wager yes, I think there is room for 40,000-45,000 tickets sold at that rate for NHL hockey in the GTA. If we're looking at upwards of double the going rate, well yeh I have a feeling that would be tough to sustain long term- if indefinitely then I have my doubts. Just musing here.. but I wonder how many seats the Leafs could fill regularly if the ACC were larger?

depends on price.

as for a new team....if the upfront investment was in the order of $1B I can't see how it would work, financially, if they could only charge +/- what the Leafs charge. Especially when you consider that a good deal of the corporate support is already contracted to the Leafs.

 

[MisterF]

Could Toronto sellout another hockey rink? That is probably easy (I say probably because there is not a ton of evidence from the non-NHL hockey in the area that Toronto fans are hockey fans as opposed to Leaf fans).

If anything Toronto fans are NHL fans, not Leafs fans. The Marlies don't draw so well but another NHL team would easily. Same thing with Hamilton. Still, for a place that`s supposedly not a hockey town, the GTA still manages to support 3 OHL teams and an AHL team. No other Canadian city comes close to that.

depends on price.

as for a new team....if the upfront investment was in the order of $1B I can't see how it would work, financially, if they could only charge +/- what the Leafs charge. Especially when you consider that a good deal of the corporate support is already contracted to the Leafs.

There`s plenty of corporate sponsorship to go around.

 

[TOareaFan]

If anything Toronto fans are NHL fans, not Leafs fans. The Marlies don't draw so well but another NHL team would easily. Same thing with Hamilton. Still, for a place that`s supposedly not a hockey town, the GTA still manages to support 3 OHL teams and an AHL team. No other Canadian city comes close to that.

The AHL team only survives because it is convenient for MLSE to keep them alive as it makes their hockey ops work better and they have a deal to manage/use the Ricoh. On a stand alone basis, as an independant hockey team needing revenue to survive....there is no way that you could describe what Toronto does as "supporting" the Marlies.

The GTA has no reason to be proud of its Junior hockey support either. Annually, the battle for the lowest attendance in the O is a two horse race between the Brampton Battalion and the St. Michaels Majors of Mississauga. Last year it was won by Brampton (actually tied with Erie), the previous year by Mississauga. Last year's attendance in Mississauga was boosted by having the number 1 ranked (for most of the season) team in the country and the ability to tie season and group tickets to attendance the memorial cup....even with those factors, the Majors barely got their attendance to average over 3k per game (the 50% full 50% empty mark).

http://jrhockeyrecruit.com/2011/05/ohl-2010-2011-attendance-report/

These two teams survive because they have rich and passionate ownership......not because of any great outpowring of support and ticket sales. That huge sigh of relief back in March was because the Owen Sound Attack made the Memorial Cup....their fans travel and they were the ones that gave the Mem Cup ticket sales a late boost to the point they almost sold out (they didn't but they got close enough that it did not look too bad on TV....average attendance for the 9 games was about 5,300).

The Gens do better but this should be noted....in what should have been a banner year for GTA OHL attendance (still a relatively new rink for the Gens with a pretty good team....and best team in the country with the Mem Cup to market in Mississauga) the combined average attendance for the three teams was 8,734! Not only is that lower than, say, London.....if you compare it to other cities (obviously smaller than the GTA) who have both the NHL and the CHL (these are the 2010 figures for these teams unless noted)....Calgary - Hitmen average 8,478....Ottawa - 67's average 7,499.....Vancouver - Giants average 7,117.....Edmonton (2011) average 4,085.....I can't find numbers on the Montreal team that plays in the old Verdun arena (if you ever get a chance to watch a game there do so!).

GTA, considering its size and wealth and its desire to be seen as the great hockey town....just cannot produce any real evidence that hockey teams who are not called Maple Leafs garner anywhere near the sort of support that they could/should expect.

There`s plenty of corporate sponsorship to go around.

I am not that positive about that....the good folks at MLSE have just completed their, at least, 2nd year in a row where they did not sell out their boxes for the season. Most (I wanna say all but I would have to check that) nights there was at least one empty box.

 

[Bogtrotter]

I am pretty sure that if someone came along with enough money to:

1) pay the league the $200 - $300 million they want for a second team in the market; and
2) pay MLSE a similar (or larger) number for splitting their market; and
3) pay for the construction of an NHL calibre arena (probably another $400 - $500 million) in the area

then we could have a second NHL team in this market......

....of course if the upfront cost of an NHL team here is around $1B it become a little bit less of a "can't miss" proposition!

I'm just guessing, but surely Anaheim didn't pay the league and Kings anywhere near that amount even allowing for inflation. Why would the league place an indemnification fee so high henceforth?

 

[TOareaFan]

I'm just guessing, but surely Anaheim didn't pay the league and Kings anywhere near that amount even allowing for inflation. Why would the league place an indemnification fee so high henceforth?

The market has a higher value and a long time has passed.

The relocation portion of the Jet's purchase price from Atlanta was reported to be $60 million of the total $170 million.

Obviously it is all guesswork but my guess would be that if I walked into Gary Bettman's office and said " how much for Phoenix and a move to Toronto". He would say $100mil for the team.....$100 mil to the league as a relocation fee......now show me your arena and show me the deal you have made with the leafs"

If you want a hint.....Balsillie's backdoor attempt to buy the bankrupt Phoenix club and move them to Hamilton was a purchase price of $242.5 million.....precisely designed to get around the money he would have had to pay the NHL/Leafs....and he wasn't going to get the Toronto market...just Hamilton!

 

[MisterF]

The AHL team only survives because it is convenient for MLSE to keep them alive as it makes their hockey ops work better and they have a deal to manage/use the Ricoh. On a stand alone basis, as an independant hockey team needing revenue to survive....there is no way that you could describe what Toronto does as "supporting" the Marlies.

The GTA has no reason to be proud of its Junior hockey support either. Annually, the battle for the lowest attendance in the O is a two horse race between the Brampton Battalion and the St. Michaels Majors of Mississauga. Last year it was won by Brampton (actually tied with Erie), the previous year by Mississauga. Last year's attendance in Mississauga was boosted by having the number 1 ranked (for most of the season) team in the country and the ability to tie season and group tickets to attendance the memorial cup....even with those factors, the Majors barely got their attendance to average over 3k per game (the 50% full 50% empty mark).

http://jrhockeyrecruit.com/2011/05/ohl-2010-2011-attendance-report/

These two teams survive because they have rich and passionate ownership......not because of any great outpowring of support and ticket sales. That huge sigh of relief back in March was because the Owen Sound Attack made the Memorial Cup....their fans travel and they were the ones that gave the Mem Cup ticket sales a late boost to the point they almost sold out (they didn't but they got close enough that it did not look too bad on TV....average attendance for the 9 games was about 5,300).

The Gens do better but this should be noted....in what should have been a banner year for GTA OHL attendance (still a relatively new rink for the Gens with a pretty good team....and best team in the country with the Mem Cup to market in Mississauga) the combined average attendance for the three teams was 8,734! Not only is that lower than, say, London.....if you compare it to other cities (obviously smaller than the GTA) who have both the NHL and the CHL (these are the 2010 figures for these teams unless noted)....Calgary - Hitmen average 8,478....Ottawa - 67's average 7,499.....Vancouver - Giants average 7,117.....Edmonton (2011) average 4,085.....I can't find numbers on the Montreal team that plays in the old Verdun arena (if you ever get a chance to watch a game there do so!).

Do you know for sure that the Marlies lose money? The Marlies are right in the middle of the AHL in terms of attendance. If they're struggling then half the league is in a world of hurt. The Majors and Batallion don't pull in huge numbers but the fact is they exist.

GTA, considering its size and wealth and its desire to be seen as the great hockey town....just cannot produce any real evidence that hockey teams who are not called Maple Leafs garner anywhere near the sort of support that they could/should expect.

That's because there's never been an NHL team other than the Leafs! There are legions of NHL fans in Toronto who dispise the Leafs, that's a built in fan base right there.

I am not that positive about that....the good folks at MLSE have just completed their, at least, 2nd year in a row where they did not sell out their boxes for the season. Most (I wanna say all but I would have to check that) nights there was at least one empty box.

And yet the Leafs are the most valuable hockey team on the planet and they make the biggest profits. Maybe they'd rather have an empty box than lower prices, who knows. With the wealth of business in Toronto any decent owner would be able to get corporate support.

 

[GenerationW]

As for the Raptors, why would you be surprised they have lasted? The NBA is locked out right now because 21 of the 30 teams view the CBA as unworkable financially. The Raptors are one of the 9 remaining healthy teams that are able to turn a profit even though they have missed the playoffs for 3 years. Being part of both MLSE and the NBA gives them a financial footing that secondary NHL teams could only dream of. In fact, if you took the Raptors (in terms of revenues and profits) and put them in the NHL, they would come in second only to the Maple Leafs. That's how good this market is, that even a secondary NBA market and clearly lower tier team within the Toronto sports heirarchy can still do better than any other NHL team.

Raptors were 19th in league attendance this past season, and based on their disappointing ratings I can only assume their local TV deal is far from lucrative. If Forbes ranks them #9 next time around, then their rankings rank.

The revenue comparison to NHL teams only points out the disparity between the NBA's national TV contracts and the NHL's, not how good this market is. The NBA took in $930 million from ABC/ESPN and TNT last season, while the NHL received $80 from NBC/Versus, and at least $100 combined from CBC and TSN. And if Toronto was such a great NBA market, MLSE would never have felt the need to transfer corporate and individual Leafs season ticket holders (some of whom had Golds and Reds for decades at MLG) to cheaper sections if they refused to buy Raptors seasons.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Do you know for sure that the Marlies lose money? The Marlies are right in the middle of the AHL in terms of attendance. If they're struggling then half the league is in a world of hurt. The Majors and Batallion don't pull in huge numbers but the fact is they exist.


That's because there's never been an NHL team other than the Leafs! There are legions of NHL fans in Toronto who dispise the Leafs, that's a built in fan base right there.


And yet the Leafs are the most valuable hockey team on the planet and they make the biggest profits. Maybe they'd rather have an empty box than lower prices, who knows. With the wealth of business in Toronto any decent owner would be able to get corporate support.

The Big Question is. Is Toronto Really big enough for this?

Raptors were 19th in league attendance this past season, and based on their disappointing ratings I can only assume their local TV deal is far from lucrative. If Forbes ranks them #9 next time around, then their rankings rank.

The revenue comparison to NHL teams only points out the disparity between the NBA's national TV contracts and the NHL's, not how good this market is. The NBA took in $930 million from ABC/ESPN and TNT last season, while the NHL received $80 from NBC/Versus, and at least $100 combined from CBC and TSN. And if Toronto was such a great NBA market, MLSE would never have felt the need to transfer corporate and individual Leafs season ticket holders (some of whom had Golds and Reds for decades at MLG) to cheaper sections if they refused to buy Raptors seasons.

The Raptors were 19th in attendance because they were crap. Whatever MLSE does with their tickets is their business. But then once again you crapping on Toronto as a sports market because you think you know better than Toronto Sports fans.

 

[TOareaFan]

The Majors and Batallion don't pull in huge numbers but the fact is they exist.

Yes they exist but how does that show that the Toronto area is a great hockey market? As I said, they exist because they have deep pocketed, passionate owners....not because the market has shown any interest in their product. As a STH I can tell you that if you ever need some quiet time to contemplate the matter....go to a Thursday night Battalion home game, every ticket in the house is $10......lots of place to stretch out and consider life. Sitting in the largest market in country (if you consider them a GTA team) in a nice rink in a city of over 500k (if you consider them just a Brampton team) with the lowest ticket prices in the OHL, showcasing a fast, energetic brand of hockey.....they struggle to fill 1/3 of their rink.

That's because there's never been an NHL team other than the Leafs! There are legions of NHL fans in Toronto who dispise the Leafs, that's a built in fan base right there.

Precisely why I did not dismiss the possibility of a successful (in terms of attendance) second NHL team when I said:

Could Toronto sellout another hockey rink? That is probably easy (I say probably because there is not a ton of evidence from the non-NHL hockey in the area that Toronto fans are hockey fans as opposed to Leaf fans).

And yet the Leafs are the most valuable hockey team on the planet and they make the biggest profits. Maybe they'd rather have an empty box than lower prices, who knows. With the wealth of business in Toronto any decent owner would be able to get corporate support.

Yes, the Leafs do very well....what is not answered is there enough corporate and fan support for two teams to do as well. The possibility that another team eats into the Leafs' revenue pie is precisely why they would demand (rightfully so IMO) a large compensatory payment (essentially a present value payment for future lost income) to even think about allowing another team in the market.

 

[TOareaFan]

Whatever MLSE does with their tickets is their business. But then once again you crapping on Toronto as a sports market because you think you know better than Toronto Sports fans.

I don't think anyone would describe Toronto as a crappy sports market.....we just are no where as good as some people like to think. I happen to be one of those Toronto sports fans. I probably attend upwards of 100 sports events a year in this area and can't remember the last calendar year where I did not purchase at least one ticket to what I call "the set" (Leafs, Raptors, TFC, Jays, Argos, Majors, Battalion)......outside of the Leafs, they are all very easy tickets to obtain and, again outside of the Leafs, all have issues/worries around attendance.

 

[old boy]

If this city ever again provides a major championship team, attendance will be a non-issue. The point to be made, one made many times, is that the city is large enough to sustain, chronically, inferior sporting products.

 

[uptown]

Of course Toronto could support another NHL team however MLSE would never allow it.

 

[TOareaFan]

Of course Toronto could support another NHL team however MLSE would never allow it.

Sure they would....just the people who have talked about it or proposed it in the past have presented it as if MLSE should just give up their market exclusivity. If someone were to offer them an appropriate level of compensation for giving up their market exclusivity then they would consider it. (IMO).

 

[Thanos]

I can't find numbers on the Montreal team that plays in the old Verdun arena (if you ever get a chance to watch a game there do so!).

2,700, and the Verdun auditorium is shit

GTA, considering its size and wealth and its desire to be seen as the great hockey town....just cannot produce any real evidence that hockey teams who are not called Maple Leafs garner anywhere near the sort of support that they could/should expect.

You're only looking at minor league stats. As shown above, Montreal is a mad hockey city, yet they couldn't care less about their QMJHL team even with the overrated Leblanc or whatever his name is playing a full season there. In fact, no Quebec based team had an attendance higher then 4,000 other than Quebec City. And if QC were to get an NHL team watch the QMJHL attendance drop to half.

 

[Thanos]

all have issues/worries around attendance.

2 years ago the Raps were 14th and before that higher.
The Jays, when they were winning, had the highest attendance in the history of the MLB.
TFC attendance is not an issue.
The issue is the teams have gone through a decade of incompetence.