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TheTigerMaster said:
Toronto rapid transit system certainly has allot of holes in it. But as it stands now I still say it's better than Chicagos. And it is improving too. By 2020 Toronto will undoubtedly have the better system.

But as I said, Toronto certainly has better education, health care and political stability (definitely). Toronto's economy is also much more stable and the employment situation is better.

If I were to raise a family Toronto would win hands down.
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I wont. Chicago's RT system seems to go everywhere yet they still manage to provide light night on par with the blue owl service. I'll admit chicago got shook by New York and Wall street yet their economy is still double ours. The employment situation being worse there is a bad thing because you there should be more white collar jobs available. Chicago employment problem is ridiculous.
 
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denfromoakvillemilton said:
I wont. Chicago's RT system seems to go everywhere yet they still manage to provide light night on par with the blue owl service.
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Interesting then that according to the most recent APTA report, TTC moves about 30% more riders per day than the CTA (unlinked trips). Even if you add METRA and GO trips to both sides, TTC/GO moves about 25% more (METRA does seem to move about 70,000 more riders a day than GO).
 
nfitz said:
Interesting then that according to the most recent APTA report, TTC moves about 30% more riders per day than the CTA (unlinked trips). Even if you add METRA and GO trips to both sides, TTC/GO moves about 25% more (METRA does seem to move about 70,000 more riders a day than GO).
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TheTigerMaster said:
Especially since Chicago is a larger region than Toronto.
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I fully concede this. Chicago has much more of a car culture Then Toronto. They have more highways which has contributed to the ghettos. Toronto's lack of highway prevented the sealing off of some neighborhoods from downtown. Point to Toronto.
 
So how exactly is Chicago better than Toronto? It has worse transit, much higher crime, poorer education, poorer healthcare, worse economy, higher unemployment, more political instability and worse neighbourhoods.

Beyond the superficials like tourist attractions, skyline (maybe) and waterfront quality, Chicago really dosen't have anything going for it.

Doesn't help that these issues haven't been becoming better in Chicago either.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
So how exactly is Chicago better than Toronto? It has worse transit, much higher crime, poorer education, poorer healthcare, worse economy, higher unemployment, more political instability and worse neighbourhoods.

Beyond the superficials like tourist attractions, skyline (maybe) and waterfront quality, Chicago really dosen't have anything going for it.

Doesn't help that these issues haven't been becoming better in Chicago either.
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I disagree on transit and economy. If I was about that I would be in NYC over both. What's poorer education. Not the universities I hope.

Employment
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2012/12/27/chicago-unemployment-rate-plummeted.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/12/07/canada-jobs-november.html

Is one percent really I big deal. I thought Chicago would be at 11 percent or something outrageous like that. And in 2020 Toronto still won't have a connection to the airport nor will the DRL be done. Crime, Healthcare(federal issues) and Education. Toronto wins there.
 
I don't know the actual numbers but unemployment rates are not comparable between countries. As I understand, in general based on employment rates (versus unemployment rates) the unemployment rate the United States uses is more "optimistic".

Based on visiting other countries I have also become skeptical of such macro economic statistics as GDP based on PPP, productivity, and inflation. GDP in my opinion is not a good way to compare living standard and measuring GDP on a PPP basis is even worse in our ever more interconnected world.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I disagree on transit and economy. If I was about that I would be in NYC over both. What's poorer education. Not the universities I hope.

Employment
http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2012/12/27/chicago-unemployment-rate-plummeted.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/12/07/canada-jobs-november.html

Is one percent really I big deal. I thought Chicago would be at 11 percent or something outrageous like that. And in 2020 Toronto still won't have a connection to the airport nor will the DRL be done. Crime, Healthcare(federal issues) and Education. Toronto wins there.
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By 2020 Toronto most definitely will have a transit connection to the airport. Multiple connections in the years following.

Within the next 9-15 years Toronto is scheduled to have the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch LRT, Sheppard LRT, Downtown Relief Line, Spadina subway extension, Yonge subway extension the Scarborough LRT all completed. Additionally there will be more streetcar lines, new higher capacity streetcars and new subway cars in the very near future. Even more projects to be announced and completed in the years to come. And those are just projects in Toronto proper. Even more in the region surrounding Toronto.

And even without all these projects, Toronto's public transit system is still superior to Chicago's!

I don't see how you could possibly disagree on the economy. Yes, Chicagos economic output is larger. But with 8%+ unemployment and near slums in some parts of the city it doesn't seem to be working too well for residents.

Regarding education, I was referring to public education. I am unable to compare the post-secondary situation in both cities. But what I can say is that Toronto has very good public and post-secondary education.
 
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I think Chicago and Toronto are very similar in nature. Very similar. But they are at different points in their history.

Toronto is a young city that is at it's peak population currently and still booming. Chicago's peak population is 3.8 million, while it currently sits at 2.7. This explains their far superior heavy rail network, and the differences in architecture and scale, and widespread abandonment. Chicago has been a large city for a lot longer.

Toronto is discovering what kind of city it wants to be and is in the process of planning and building a metropolitan area (GGH) that will probably surpass Los Angeles within our lifetime, imho at least.

Chicago is a bigger city with better architecture and a better rail network. But it's not growing nearly as fast as Toronto. And it has more murders than Canada. It's a great city, though. But by the looks of it, they'll soon be seeing our tail lights.

Toronto is more liveable. Chicago is a bigger city. Toronto has a brighter economic future. Chicago's economy is currently larger.

Toronto: 2.6 million (630 km2) - grew at 4.3% in the last census
Chicago: 2.7 million (606km2) - grew at -6.7% in the last census
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 8,759,312 (31,561.57 km2)
Chicagoland: 9,729,825 (28,120 km2)
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
By 2020 Toronto most definitely will have a transit connection to the airport. Multiple connections in the years following.

Within the next 9-15 years Toronto is scheduled to have the Eglinton Crosstown, Finch LRT, Sheppard LRT, Downtown Relief Line, Spadina subway extension, Yonge subway extension and the Scarborough LRT all completed. Even more projects to be announced and completed in the years to come.

And even without all these projects, Toronto's public transit system is still superior to Chicago's!

I don't see how you could possibly disagree on the economy. Yes, Chicagos economic output is larger. But with 8%+ unemployment and near slums in some parts of the city it doesn't seem to be working too well for residents.

Regarding education, I was referring to public education. I am unable to compare the post-secondary situation in both cities. But what I can say is that Toronto has very good public and post-secondary education.
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I just don't think transit is better. There are still many areas of Toronto where the commute is tough. Unless you live in the far northwest (ironically the safest part of Chicago) you should be able to get anywhere under an hour.
 
Jaye101 said:
I think Chicago and Toronto are very similar in nature. Very similar. But they are at different points in their history.

Toronto is a young city that is at it's peak population currently and still booming. Chicago's peak population is 3.8 million, while it currently sits at 2.7. This explains their far superior heavy rail network, and the differences in architecture and scale, and widespread abandonment. Chicago has been a large city for a lot longer.

Toronto is discovering what kind of city it wants to be and is in the process of planning and building a metropolitan area (GGH) that will probably surpass Los Angeles within our lifetime, imho at least.

Chicago is a bigger city with better architecture and a better rail network. But it's not growing nearly as fast as Toronto. And it has more murders than Canada. It's a great city, though. But by the looks of it, they'll soon be seeing our tail lights.

Toronto is more liveable. Chicago is a bigger city. Toronto has a brighter economic future. Chicago's economy is currently larger.

Toronto: 2.6 million (630 km2) - grew at -6.7% in the last census
Chicago: 2.7 million (606km2) - grew at 4.3% in the last census
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 8,759,312 (31,561.57 km2)
Chicagoland: 9,729,825 (28,120 km2)
Click to expand...

This is what I am saying. I think the cities are even.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
I just don't think transit is better. There are still many areas of Toronto where the commute is tough. Unless you live in the far northwest (ironically the safest part of Chicago) you should be able to get anywhere under an hour.
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Really? Even with the poor state of Toronto's transit today, most still say it's better than Chicago's. I can't believe that even with the 10+ (I say 10+ because I can't be bother to count them all since there are so many) rapid transit projects in Toronto you still insist that Chicago has better transit. Even Chicago's transit (non-rapid) network is worse than Toronto's.

Perhaps if Toronto build rapid transit on every street you may think it has a better network in Chicago's?
 
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Jaye101 said:
I think Chicago and Toronto are very similar in nature. Very similar. But they are at different points in their history.

Toronto is a young city that is at it's peak population currently and still booming. Chicago's peak population is 3.8 million, while it currently sits at 2.7. This explains their far superior heavy rail network, and the differences in architecture and scale, and widespread abandonment. Chicago has been a large city for a lot longer.

Toronto is discovering what kind of city it wants to be and is in the process of planning and building a metropolitan area (GGH) that will probably surpass Los Angeles within our lifetime, imho at least.

Chicago is a bigger city with better architecture and a better rail network. But it's not growing nearly as fast as Toronto. And it has more murders than Canada. It's a great city, though. But by the looks of it, they'll soon be seeing our tail lights.

Toronto is more liveable. Chicago is a bigger city. Toronto has a brighter economic future. Chicago's economy is currently larger.

Toronto: 2.6 million (630 km2) - grew at 4.3% in the last census
Chicago: 2.7 million (606km2) - grew at -6.7% in the last census
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 8,759,312 (31,561.57 km2)
Chicagoland: 9,729,825 (28,120 km2)
Click to expand...

Last time I looked at census data Chicago wasn't growing at all. People are leaving the city.

But other than that we agree. Toronto certainly has a very bright future ahead of it.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Really? Even with the poor state of Toronto's transit today, most still say it's better than Chicago's. I can't believe that even with the 10+ (I say 10+ because I can't be bother to count them all since there are so many) rapid transit projects in Toronto you still insist that Chicago has better transit. Even Chicago's transit (non-rapid) network is worse than Toronto's.

Perhaps if Toronto build rapid transit on every street you may think it has a better network in Chicago's?
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Don't worry I can't count them either. Like I said I think you are the best poster on this site. I just disagree here. I said right now. Chicago maintains a similar standard of bus service with more rapid transit. In the future Toronto will pass it for sure, and do a much better job, but now, February 7 2013. Chicago is just better at this issue. It can take 2 hours to get to downtown from some parts of this city.
 
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