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Finally, I question at what point Metrolinx will actually admit they are behind. Having gone to many meetings I have little confidence that they will either have the knowledge or the desire to be upfront with the public. They just tell you what you want to hear and also those who know don't seem to talk and those talk rarely know too much.

One thing that bothered me about TYSSE was how TTC waited until its overrun reached (IIRC) $450M before publicly owning up. Projects don't burn that kind of money overnight - much earlier, the project was no doubt known to be $100M overspent, and then $200M, then $300M. None of those overspends was reported at the time. Disclosure happened at the point where a) it was obvious that there was no room to recover and b) there was a plan for the political fallout of the inevitable fessing up. In other words, disclosure happened at the point where it was most convenient politically, not the point where the management first knew they had a problem.

The reason this is troubling (apart from the obvious issues of transparency and poor project performance) is that during my postulated period where a material overspend was known and growing, I wonder if the TTC released year end or other reporting that did not divulge the overspend, and which may have given a reasonable person the impression that everything was on track. I wonder if any such reports were backed up by an auditor's attestation as to their truthfulness. In publicly traded companies, that scenario may have professional and regulatory implications, for both the company and its auditors. TTC and ML are both government agencies, so they have a looser regulatory regime, although both have likely resolved that they will voluntarily adhere to the same standards as a matter of general best practice.

I am not a lawyer or accountant, and I don't know the point at which a government-owned corporation is legally obligated to divulge a material overspend or potential future liability (don't fool yourselves by P3 - Ontario will eat any overspend, one way or the other). Nor do I know what amount of overspend or delay would be the threshold for materiality. I am merely speculating on what might have happened. At this point it's moot for TYSSE, but having been disappointed once, perhaps it's best if that not happen again with Crosstown.

If someone were really wanting to enforce transparency over Crosstown's status, they would watch the official reporting closely for whether any delays or cost concerns were reported, or not. And, then, they would query ML's auditors on whether there was any evidence of same. That would likely get merely a non-answer, but it would set the stage for whenever the truth comes out. The question then would be, when were you first aware? Did you advise your auditors? Your board? The Minister? Why did you not answer us truthfully when we asked you?

ML may feel they have lots of latitude to spin tales to the public, but auditors have to maintain accreditation. And reputation.

All I'm saying is, rather than wondering whether ML will tell us anything, maybe someone should be asking whether they are legally obliged to do so, and under what circumstances, and when. And what the FOI implications are.

- Paul

(PS - the whole thing becomes complicated by P3, because ML is firewalled from the bare facts to some extent. However, the contract with the vendor will have requirements for periodic reporting, and probably requirement for timely disclosure of specific major issues, and it will allow ML the ability to maintain some level of oversight. If there is a delay or an overspend looming, ML may well discover that fairly quickly)
 
One thing that bothered me about TYSSE was how TTC waited until its overrun reached (IIRC) $450M before publicly owning up. Projects don't burn that kind of money overnight - much earlier, the project was no doubt known to be $100M overspent, and then $200M, then $300M. None of those overspends was reported at the time. Disclosure happened at the point where a) it was obvious that there was no room to recover and b) there was a plan for the political fallout of the inevitable fessing up. In other words, disclosure happened at the point where it was most convenient politically, not the point where the management first knew they had a problem.

The reason this is troubling (apart from the obvious issues of transparency and poor project performance) is that during my postulated period where a material overspend was known and growing, I wonder if the TTC released year end or other reporting that did not divulge the overspend, and which may have given a reasonable person the impression that everything was on track. I wonder if any such reports were backed up by an auditor's attestation as to their truthfulness. In publicly traded companies, that scenario may have professional and regulatory implications, for both the company and its auditors. TTC and ML are both government agencies, so they have a looser regulatory regime, although both have likely resolved that they will voluntarily adhere to the same standards as a matter of general best practice.

I am not a lawyer or accountant, and I don't know the point at which a government-owned corporation is legally obligated to divulge a material overspend or potential future liability (don't fool yourselves by P3 - Ontario will eat any overspend, one way or the other). Nor do I know what amount of overspend or delay would be the threshold for materiality. I am merely speculating on what might have happened. At this point it's moot for TYSSE, but having been disappointed once, perhaps it's best if that not happen again with Crosstown.

If someone were really wanting to enforce transparency over Crosstown's status, they would watch the official reporting closely for whether any delays or cost concerns were reported, or not. And, then, they would query ML's auditors on whether there was any evidence of same. That would likely get merely a non-answer, but it would set the stage for whenever the truth comes out. The question then would be, when were you first aware? Did you advise your auditors? Your board? The Minister? Why did you not answer us truthfully when we asked you?

ML may feel they have lots of latitude to spin tales to the public, but auditors have to maintain accreditation. And reputation.

All I'm saying is, rather than wondering whether ML will tell us anything, maybe someone should be asking whether they are legally obliged to do so, and under what circumstances, and when. And what the FOI implications are.

- Paul

(PS - the whole thing becomes complicated by P3, because ML is firewalled from the bare facts to some extent. However, the contract with the vendor will have requirements for periodic reporting, and probably requirement for timely disclosure of specific major issues, and it will allow ML the ability to maintain some level of oversight. If there is a delay or an overspend looming, ML may well discover that fairly quickly)

While Metrolinx hasn't given out that kind of detail on the work going on with the Crosstown, if you follow the work closely through the public-facing website, announcements and the actual work being done, it's patently obvious that the timelines have slipped and that they're racing to try and keep up. If you go back in the public presentations, even to just earlier this year, you'll see projected dates of work and changes slip, in some cases by multiple months. They've even changed the construction method at one station, seemingly in an attempt to keep on schedule.

And while you're right that Metrolinx themselves will know the status of Crosslinx at any given time, they seem far more likely to continue to broadcast their good-news stories at their public meetings, and not that things are falling further and further behind. Just like the TTC did with the TYSSE.

Dan
 
They've even changed the construction method at one station, seemingly in an attempt to keep on schedule.

Which station was this and what did they change?

But, yea, totally agree with the two posters above. ML will announce it’s late when it’s painfully obvious that this thing is nowhere close to on schedule. Probably when Yonge Station is still a giant hole in the ground with 365 days to go until the planned launch.
 
Probably when Yonge Station is still a giant hole
Yonge Station? What’s that? All I know is Eglinton Station on Eglinton Avenue on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT Line. ?

I’m still seriously annoyed that it won’t be renamed Eglinton-Yonge Station. Add to the fact that Eglinton West is changing to Cedarvale when there’s no conflict or need for it.
 
Yonge Station? What’s that? All I know is Eglinton Station on Eglinton Avenue on the Eglinton Crosstown LRT Line. ?

I’m still seriously annoyed that it won’t be renamed Eglinton-Yonge Station. Add to the fact that Eglinton West is changing to Cedarvale when there’s no conflict or need for it.

Old granny" hi there I need to get to St. Clair station. But I can't seem to find the Yonge station" Some random person" oh you need to get off at Eglinton." Granny" oh so I can get off at any of the 21 stations." Person, " no get off of the train at the station at Eglinton to catch line 1." Granny" oh so at the beginning of Eglinton." Person" no, it's literally between avenue and mt. pleasant stations" Granny" I never knew there was mountains in Toronto and also aren't we on Eglinton Avenue. Do you want me to get off there?
 
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Which station was this and what did they change?

But, yea, totally agree with the two posters above. ML will announce it’s late when it’s painfully obvious that this thing is nowhere close to on schedule. Probably when Yonge Station is still a giant hole in the ground with 365 days to go until the planned launch.

Metrolinx’s board was busy focusing on station naming, when they should’ve been focusing on how their project was coming off the rails!
 
Metrolinx’s board was busy focusing on station naming, when they should’ve been focusing on how their project was coming off the rails!
It's not like the project was ever on the right track. They kept the cash flow slow till the end and this is what happens. Tunneling started in 2011 and major station excavation in 2019. If they can't finish in 2021, it's a real shame that it takes over a decade to build one line. I don't understand why they pushed the underpinning this late. They better hope things go ahead of schedule with no screw ups.
 
Which station was this and what did they change?

Mount Pleasant. All of the other cut-and-cover stations have been excavated and decked over, allowing the roadway to return to (almost) its full width after a relatively short time period while the rest of the construction drags on. They are doing a modified form of cut-and-cover where they excavate one side of the site just deep enough to pour the permanent roof structure, then backfill it and reinstate the roadway on it. This way forces the road to be maintained to a lesser width and capacity for much longer - it's been well over a year for the south half of the station box, and they hope to start on the north half in September.

Dan
 
Mount Pleasant. All of the other cut-and-cover stations have been excavated and decked over, allowing the roadway to return to (almost) its full width after a relatively short time period while the rest of the construction drags on.

Hmmm.... there are some pretty deep and restrictive excavations out there. Mount Pleasant may be the farthest behind, but the roadway is pretty well choked all the way to Black Creek.

- Paul
 
Hmmm.... there are some pretty deep and restrictive excavations out there. Mount Pleasant may be the farthest behind, but the roadway is pretty well choked all the way to Black Creek.

- Paul
Yeah, honestly. It's 2019. I would have thought all that cut-and-cover Flintstones stuff would have been a thing of the past after the Yonge line was built. I'm honestly dismayed at how disruptive it is. From Laird to Victoria Park right now, it's nearly impossible to get across Eglinton, even on the mains, because they're so constricted. Seriously. With the kind of computing power we have today, this, THIS was the best planning, provisioning, and execution they could come up with?
 
Yeah, honestly. It's 2019. I would have thought all that cut-and-cover Flintstones stuff would have been a thing of the past after the Yonge line was built. I'm honestly dismayed at how disruptive it is. From Laird to Victoria Park right now, it's nearly impossible to get across Eglinton, even on the mains, because they're so constricted. Seriously. With the kind of computing power we have today, this, THIS was the best planning, provisioning, and execution they could come up with?
it's a lot a lot cheaper than mining the stations from the inside out.
 
Yeah, honestly. It's 2019. I would have thought all that cut-and-cover Flintstones stuff would have been a thing of the past after the Yonge line was built. I'm honestly dismayed at how disruptive it is. From Laird to Victoria Park right now, it's nearly impossible to get across Eglinton, even on the mains, because they're so constricted. Seriously. With the kind of computing power we have today, this, THIS was the best planning, provisioning, and execution they could come up with?
Yonge style cut-and-cover is more disruptive (by area), but less by time.
With deep TBM, the disruption is more localized (near stations), but for a longer time (because of station depth).
Yonge style could be improved upon using pre-cast concrete - which didn't exist in the 1950's.

Laird to Vic Park is a different story and maybe highlight how much more disruptive on-street LRT is compared to elevated - both during construction and after.
 
it's a lot a lot cheaper than mining the stations from the inside out.
Yeah, I imagine it is, but we did go and develop a more subtle technology for a reason. I have to wonder what the costs of the disruptions to commuters and adjacent businesses is.
 
Hmmm.... there are some pretty deep and restrictive excavations out there. Mount Pleasant may be the farthest behind, but the roadway is pretty well choked all the way to Black Creek.

- Paul

Indeed. And at several locations, they reopened the roadway to close to its full width.

But at a number of others, they haven't. At Yonge, for instance, as late as February they were talking about decking over the construction zones to allow 4 lanes of traffic through on Eglinton in April. That simply hasn't happened.

Dan
 
Mount Pleasant. All of the other cut-and-cover stations have been excavated and decked over, allowing the roadway to return to (almost) its full width after a relatively short time period while the rest of the construction drags on. They are doing a modified form of cut-and-cover where they excavate one side of the site just deep enough to pour the permanent roof structure, then backfill it and reinstate the roadway on it. This way forces the road to be maintained to a lesser width and capacity for much longer - it's been well over a year for the south half of the station box, and they hope to start on the north half in September.

Dan

Lmfao, yea this project isn’t being delivered on time. Let’s be optimistic and say that due to inertia, they can finish the north box in 10 months. That brings us to July 2020, which gives them just 14 months to build the rest of the station. That’s not gonna happen. Not a chance.
 

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