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It should to a degree. No one wants to be in Greece's predicament.

Well said. I think that government ought to be run as a business wherever practicable. Where services are voluntary, wherever people can afford to pay, wherever there is excess that can be taxed and turned into something for the positive good, there should be a business interest. That should be trumped by a more central principle of looking after the public good and the welfare of individuals; for example, in health care. You don't kick a man when he's down (forgive the momentary gender exclusivity :)). I think the LCBO, in general, is a good idea... people get a wide variety of products because we have one of the largest single purchasers in the world; they get it at a reasonable price; and the province reaps a profit. Not everything should be done that way, but we can find sensible ones. Deficit spending should be permissible, but at the same time, kept to a minimum. I was amazed that we were able to pay down the federal debt for a dozen years or so... I honestly never thought I'd see that in my lifetime. I'd like to see more of it... when practical, of course.
 
"Business perspective"? I didn't realize government was supposed to be run like a business.

Well, that's up the electorate. A very large number of them consistently vote for lower taxes and for it to be a more efficient provider of services.

Becoming more efficient almost always means becoming less fair and not distributing funds evenly.

Government is what the voters create of it. If we want to reduce the deficit while increasing spending, we need to make targetted investments in various cities economies. If we don't care about reducing the deficit or don't mind cutting spending, then it really doesn't matter much.

Pretty sure construction jobs are still jobs, and pretty good paying jobs at that... Not to mention the spin-off benefits of increased capacity on trade routes, etc.

Of course, but that comes with any capital expenditure. Building a $10B hostpital complex in Moose Jaw would employ thousands of people in the area temporarily, then your left with a hugely oversized hospital that drains more than it gives.

Money is finite and it always get spent. Saying that Project X is worthwhile because it provides construction work is silly. Project Y, which is the same $ amount, will also provide roughly the same amount of construction work. This is one of the main reasons I dislike the way Metrolinx does BCAs; there are millions of alternative ways to spend that money and most of them provide the same temporary job benefit.


Toronto isn't the only city in Ontario that's having trouble moving people.

Agreed. I'm not arguing against providing funding to other locations. I'm simply stating that targetted investment is better. Cities that do not have trouble moving people (I'd put London in that group) don't need $500M in new transit infrastructure; but they could use a few more medical research centres as the current ones are above capacity.

Could London use better transit? Sure. Will it improve their current economic situation? Not proporionally to spending, no. Would the new BRT line be better for them than the research centre? Nope. Should we build London a BRT because Toronto wants a subway, and St. Catherines a mini-medical research facility because London wants a new medical reseasrch facility? Certainly not.

I have no issue with spreading funding around evenly; I have an issue with spreading each categories worth of funding around evenly and expecting economic benefit from it.
 
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^ Even Lawrence LRT would need some tunneled sections (Bathurst to Yonge, for sure); but not as long as under Eglinton.
 
^ Even Lawrence LRT would need some tunneled sections (Bathurst to Yonge, for sure); but not as long as under Eglinton.

i live close to the area and i wouldnt think thats true. however it is a very rich area and the locals might complain about above ground transit. but practically speaking i wouldnt think so. bathurst and lawrence is a massive suburban plaza and so is avenue and lawrence. in between are single detached houses.
 
Gee is either way off or on the mark. This is one of those times it is the latter. In fact, it may be one of his best articles to date.
Yup, it's pretty much a gong show. Way too many fingers in the pie - city council, the mayor, the TTC, Metrolinx, the 905 municipalities, the province - it all leads to pointless bickering and nothing happening. What really needs to happen is the planning needs to be taken out of the hands of the politicians, there needs to be a single agency doing mass transit planning across the GTA, and it needs sustained funding. The only logical agency to do this is Metrolinx. Their transit plan, even if it has faults, is a pretty good one. That can only happen from the level of the premier and would be fought at every step by the mayor and TTC, but it has to be done. Come on Dalton, grow a pair and do what's needed.
 
You guys want to eliminate the subsidy to rural schools and hospitals? I go out to the countryside occasionally. Let's not turn it into Mad Max out there!
I don't think anyone is suggesting that ... but those that live out there seem to act all independent and like, and conveniently seem to forget that only by sucking on the GTA's teat can they subsidize their otherwise unsustainable way of life.
 
Yup, it's pretty much a gong show. Way too many fingers in the pie - city council, the mayor, the TTC, Metrolinx, the 905 municipalities, the province - it all leads to pointless bickering and nothing happening. What really needs to happen is the planning needs to be taken out of the hands of the politicians, there needs to be a single agency doing mass transit planning across the GTA, and it needs sustained funding. The only logical agency to do this is Metrolinx. Their transit plan, even if it has faults, is a pretty good one. That can only happen from the level of the premier and would be fought at every step by the mayor and TTC, but it has to be done. Come on Dalton, grow a pair and do what's needed.

i'd like it if metrolinx handled everything as well, and also that no political figure has any say in its operation.
 
Well, that's up the electorate. A very large number of them consistently vote for lower taxes and for it to be a more efficient provider of services.

Becoming more efficient almost always means becoming less fair and not distributing funds evenly.

Government is what the voters create of it. If we want to reduce the deficit while increasing spending, we need to make targetted investments in various cities economies. If we don't care about reducing the deficit or don't mind cutting spending, then it really doesn't matter much.

I disagree that 'becoming more efficient means becoming less fair and not distributing funds evenly'. To me, becoming more efficient means removing redundancies in the government bureaucracy and streamlining processes to make them more efficient and less cost and time consuming. What you're describing seems to be the elimination or severe reduction of certain aspects of government in order to reduce the size of government.

Of course, but that comes with any capital expenditure. Building a $10B hostpital complex in Moose Jaw would employ thousands of people in the area temporarily, then your left with a hugely oversized hospital that drains more than it gives.

Money is finite and it always get spent. Saying that Project X is worthwhile because it provides construction work is silly. Project Y, which is the same $ amount, will also provide roughly the same amount of construction work. This is one of the main reasons I dislike the way Metrolinx does BCAs; there are millions of alternative ways to spend that money and most of them provide the same temporary job benefit.

When Highways 1 and 2 in New Brunswick were twinned starting at the beginning of the last decade (and I believe some parts are still under construction), they were billed largely as a make-work project for the area. The traffic volumes didn't really justify it, but they felt the safety and economic benefits made it worth it.

To a lesser extent, the same is true in Ontario for the twinning of Highway 11 up to North Bay. The purely traffic volume case was somewhat dubious, but the economic gains made it worth it.

As for the notion that it will deprive funding from other things, that's not necessarily true. There's nothing saying that those funding commitments can't come through as well. For most rural municipalities with a small population, the amount of funding they will receive through this program will not be enough to do anything substantial (by urban standards). For example, Lanark County just west of Ottawa would receive $12,757,000 per year. This would be enough to rehabilitate a couple county roads per year, but that's about it. But that may be all they need to do at this point. Does getting that $12 million exclude the possibility a $50 million grant for an expanded hospital facility? I wouldn't think so.

And let's not forget, that every road project that is paid for by the Province is one less project that needs to be paid for by the municipality. This means less pressure placed on strained municipal budgets every year.

Agreed. I'm not arguing against providing funding to other locations. I'm simply stating that targetted investment is better. Cities that do not have trouble moving people (I'd put London in that group) don't need $500M in new transit infrastructure; but they could use a few more medical research centres as the current ones are above capacity.

Could London use better transit? Sure. Will it improve their current economic situation? Not proporionally to spending, no. Would the new BRT line be better for them than the research centre? Nope. Should we build London a BRT because Toronto wants a subway, and St. Catherines a mini-medical research facility because London wants a new medical reseasrch facility? Certainly not.

I have no issue with spreading funding around evenly; I have an issue with spreading each categories worth of funding around evenly and expecting economic benefit from it.

I agree that for some things targeted investment is better, especially for an issue that is unique to an area. Not every city needs an expanded hospital. Not every county needs an improvement done to a major hydro corridor passing through it. But every city, region, or county needs transportation infrastructure improvements. Whether it be transit, widening a road, or just resurfacing a road. Funding for these type of projects is needed, everywhere.

So why not set up a mechanism that gives a solid funding stream to the municipalities for these projects? Most of them would have been covered under the 'hat in hand' method that the Province currently uses. Under this system though, the municipalities wouldn't have to waste time going to the Province and asking, because the money would already be in a bank account for them to use. This would perhaps speed up construction times (not sitting waiting for the cheque to arrive), and it would also add a degree of certainty to the funding process.

PS: I'm liking this debate though, I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have.
 
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Yup, it's pretty much a gong show. Way too many fingers in the pie - city council, the mayor, the TTC, Metrolinx, the 905 municipalities, the province - it all leads to pointless bickering and nothing happening. What really needs to happen is the planning needs to be taken out of the hands of the politicians, there needs to be a single agency doing mass transit planning across the GTA, and it needs sustained funding. The only logical agency to do this is Metrolinx. Their transit plan, even if it has faults, is a pretty good one. That can only happen from the level of the premier and would be fought at every step by the mayor and TTC, but it has to be done. Come on Dalton, grow a pair and do what's needed.

I know we all fantasize about the possibility of a technocratic transit utopia, but I just don't think it's a practical notion. These are public monies and one way or another politicians will insert themselves into the process. If they don't, those of the next government will. I am not aware of any comparable jurisdiction in the western world where there isn't some level of political involvement in transit planning--it's just that in many other places the politicians seem more responsible on the transit file than they do in Toronto.

I think the way to end the vicious cycle of politicized transit planning might be to just channel the pandering more effectively. One interesting model was the structure set up in the US not so long ago to determine how to consolidate military facilities--a task similar to transit planning in that every pol has an incentive to protect his or her own constituency, and thus to meddle. Congress created an expert panel to decide what bases to close, and their findings were then voted on as a package, up or down, without amendments allowed. There might be a lesson there for Toronto--a system that preserves political input, but without politicians getting into the specifics.

The other solution, in my view, is the radically democratic approach: referenda on specific lines or plans, and on tax levies to pay for them. These seem to have had some success in the US--in Denver especially I believe.
 
I was already gobsmacked by this gong show, and then this: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-metrolinx-over-eglinton-line/article2318278/

The language in the TTC report, which is on the agenda for this week's Commission meeting, is somewhat milder than the Globe article would suggest. But the TTC itself seems to be doing its best to paint a giant bullseye on the Crosstown's funding. How hard would it be for McGuinty to say that Toronto was given a huge check for transit, no questions asked, and then started complaining about it, and that that money would go further with someone who knew what they want?

What do people think about this other part of the debate, over how the ECLRT should be built, maintained, and operated?

it seems to me that the TTC is saying that a P3 cannot be used, because they cannot trust private contractors to build a complex project to their satisfaction, or to integrate it with existing TTC operations. Instead they want Metrolinx to cede control of the project largely to TTC, even though Metrolinx is to own the assets.

This seems pretty funny to me. If TTC cannot trust a private contractor to build and maintain it right, then why should Metrolinx trust TTC to handle its assets right?

Also, TTC is basically asking Metrolinx for blank cheque for delivering this project - they do it and Metrolinx pays what TTC says it costs. That's like an old-style cost-plus contract which has really bad incentives to control costs. The TTC would never sign a cost-plus contract with its own subcontractors today, would it?

In the MOU, the deal was that money saved on Eglinton would be devoted to Sheppard. So that would give some incentives to control construction costs, to maximize the amount left over. But now it seems clear that there won't be a Sheppard subway, or if so it will be financed very differently. So why would TTC go to any trouble to deliver ECLRT under budget?

The other way to go is complete separation, with a DBO P3 contract for Eglinton. I think that's the Canada Line model though others here know more. TTC is surely right they need to be involved in interchange stations but otherwise, why not go with a completely separate operation on Eglinton and the SRT?
 
This seems pretty funny to me. If TTC cannot trust a private contractor to build and maintain it right, then why should Metrolinx trust TTC to handle its assets right?

For all practical purposes, it will be a TTC asset. Metrolinx "ownership" is no more than an accounting trick designed to make the provincial fiscal books look better.

TTC is surely right they need to be involved in interchange stations but otherwise, why not go with a completely separate operation on Eglinton and the SRT?

If so, it would be more logical to have one agency oversee all rapid transit, and another agency operate local routes.
 
So why not set up a mechanism that gives a solid funding stream to the municipalities for these projects? Most of them would have been covered under the 'hat in hand' method that the Province currently uses. Under this system though, the municipalities wouldn't have to waste time going to the Province and asking, because the money would already be in a bank account for them to use. This would perhaps speed up construction times (not sitting waiting for the cheque to arrive), and it would also add a degree of certainty to the funding process.

PS: I'm liking this debate though, I think it's a worthwhile discussion to have.

Also I seriously think that we should abandon the idea of LRT entirely for new lines and build either subways/elevated rail/commuter rail or bus rapid transit only. LRT is an "intermediate" method of transit that is problematic because it is much more costly to build than BRT; its construction is very disruptive (like subways), but it is not much faster than BRT and cannot possibly compete with driving on congested highways. The only benefit is that the capacity is a bit higher than BRT, but much much lower than subways and is easily overwhelmed; also it is beyond absurd to ever put two methods of rail transit on one road like Sheppard. If there is not enough demand/enough money to build a subway line on a road then just build diamond lanes and buy articulated buses, which we should be doing for every major bus route in the city.
 
Also Hume's idea of putting LRT on the surface along Eglinton between Laird and Black Creek is absurd. It seems that his sole reason for proposing this is because he is strongly anti-car and he wants to discourage driving on Eglinton. This is ridiculous because an Eglinton streetcar above ground would either have to be in mixed traffic or the road would have to be narrowed to 2 lanes making it near-impossible to drive on Eglinton which is horribly congested as it is. This would make the Eglinton streetcar extremely slow, and it would take forever to get through this section due to having many stops and stopping at a zillion traffic lights; would reduce the line's capacity; would reduce ridership; and would make the Eglinton line useless as a reliever to Highway 401 in rush hour. Everyone knows how the #32 Eglinton West bus takes absolutely forever to get from Jane St. to Yonge St; do we really want a streetcar that is this slow? Plus many people need to drive for a variety of reasons (coming from areas of the suburbs that have bad/no transit; coming from out of town; making deliveries or carrying heavy stuff, etc.)
 
How about the Original 4.6 billion dollar plan? People are ridiculous in this city. Always the two extremes never a compromise.

Underground in the centre of eglinton, above ground to the SMLRT and Above to Pearson what is so hard about this.
 

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