[Justin10000]

Have you considered the amount of space required to put stations underground at intersections? And that it just means more elevators, and escalators to maintain? And for what? Some marginal decrease in travel time? So much obsession for grade separated transit.

 

[spider]

Have you considered the amount of space required to put stations underground at intersections? And that it just means more elevators, and escalators to maintain? And for what? Some marginal decrease in travel time? So much obsession for grade separated transit.

If space = money in this exercise and is considered justified why not bury/tunnel the whole line between stations where the price only includes a tunnel?

 

[Voltz]

Doesn't seem like that big of a deal at Spadina Station, St. Clair West Station, or the portal on the Harbourfront Streetcar. Those streetcars seem to manage it just fine.

Of course they can manage it but having all stops like that would increase operating costs and wear on the brakes and motors. And at those locations the streetcars do not have to come to a stop immediately at the bottom of a hill.

 

[gweed123]

Have you considered the amount of space required to put stations underground at intersections? And that it just means more elevators, and escalators to maintain? And for what? Some marginal decrease in travel time? So much obsession for grade separated transit.

Do the downtown stations require space at intersections? How much space does the little pavilion at Dundas Square take up? Not very much. And 2 elevators, no escalators (just stairs). In fact, those pavilions can probably fit in a modified island between the main roadway and the dedicated right turn lane.

And it's not just the decrease in travel time, it's also the increase in capacity, so that the Eglinton and Scarborough LRTs can run as a single line.

 

[Eug]

These last few posts sound like pretty good arguments to just bury the whole line.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

On a project the size of Eglinton, having the LRT duck under major intersections along Eglinton East won't be a deal-breaker in terms of overall project cost, but it would definitely increase the efficiency of both the line and the traffic flow on cross streets.

Have the station at each major intersection be underground, but directly underneath the street, with the cross street providing a roof over the central section. The platform would extend out on each side, and then after exiting the station the track would ramp back up to at-grade, or near at-grade. When I get some free time I'm going to sketch up what I mean.

It would be a really bare bones station, with the northwest and southeast corners of the intersection both having a small structure with an elevator and a staircase leading down to a small mezzanine right beside the platform. Think Dundas Station, but less elaborate. The northeast and southwest sides would just be a simple staircase, like at the downtown stations. No heating required, because it would be mostly open air, with only the intersection above providing shelter.

Would it be more expensive? Yeah. Would it be a worthwhile expense? You bet your ass.

Great idea. But I think that people would have some safety concerns. I don't think that most people like the idea of waiting in an underground bare bones station alone at 2:00 AM. I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd be a little concerned about safety if I had to wait in something like that late at night.

 

[Palma]

Great idea. But I think that people would have some safety concerns. I don't think that most people like the idea of waiting in an underground bare bones station alone at 2:00 AM. I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd be a little concerned about safety if I had to wait in something like that late at night.

Thats why i believe there should still be TTC collectors for that very reason - safety concerns. I would hate to be getting off even at a subway knowing no TTC collector will be there but who knows who will be

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

On a project the size of Eglinton, having the LRT duck under major intersections along Eglinton East won't be a deal-breaker in terms of overall project cost, but it would definitely increase the efficiency of both the line and the traffic flow on cross streets.

What do you consider a 'major intersection'? The line comes out past Laird. Don Mills? Check. It has to go under the DVP, but that's already a bridge. No need to go under Vic Park -- they just need to fix the intersection as they build the station and it will improve traffic flow. Why bother going under Warden or Birchmount?

So, essentially, an underground station at Don Mills, which is what I thought they were doing anyway (maybe it was someone's fantasy rendering I remember discussing?)

 

[Justin10000]

Do the downtown stations require space at intersections? How much space does the little pavilion at Dundas Square take up? Not very much. And 2 elevators, no escalators (just stairs). In fact, those pavilions can probably fit in a modified island between the main roadway and the dedicated right turn lane.

I am not sure what subway stations that were built in the 1950's with no accessibility code has to do with the building stations today. Name one modern subway station in Toronto that does not have escalators. None. It's all nice and all to think up scenarios, but they're always seem to flounder in reality.

I took a look at the underground station design for Don Mills, and there will be 3 entrances, and 4 fire ventilation shafts. Imagine this for every single stop you think should be underground. It's not economical, especially at intersections such as Warden, Birchmount, and Leslie.

It's make no sense to put every station underground at intersections for a marginal decrease in travel time.

And it's not just the decrease in travel time, it's also the increase in capacity, so that the Eglinton and Scarborough LRTs can run as a single line.

I remember reading somewhere the TTC was going to keep the ECLRT, and SRT as separate lines.

 

[gweed123]

I am not sure what subway stations that were built in the 1950's with no accessibility code has to do with the building stations today. Name one modern subway station in Toronto that does not have escalators. None. It's all nice and all to think up scenarios, but they're always seem to flounder in reality.

I took a look at the underground station design for Don Mills, and there will be 3 entrances, and 4 fire ventilation shafts. Imagine this for every single stop you think should be underground. It's not economical, especially at intersections such as Warden, Birchmount, and Leslie.

It's make no sense to put every station underground at intersections for a marginal decrease in travel time.

But it wouldn't be fully underground, it would just be grade-separated. The only "underground" part would be right below the street, the rest of the station would be open cut, therefore no ventilation requirements, etc. The emergency exit plan is simply "walk along the walkway up the gradual slope to street level". You're thinking a full underground station, and I'm saying that's not what I'm proposing.

And AFAIK, the main qualification to be "accessible" is an elevator. Escalators are just a bonus.

I remember reading somewhere the TTC was going to keep the ECLRT, and SRT as separate lines.

Which in my opinion is dumb. It keeps a needless forced transfer at Kennedy.

 

[gweed123]

Great idea. But I think that people would have some safety concerns. I don't think that most people like the idea of waiting in an underground bare bones station alone at 2:00 AM. I'm not ashamed to admit that I'd be a little concerned about safety if I had to wait in something like that late at night.

I think it would have more to do with how many people would be using the station than whether or not it was elaborate or bare bones. Regardless of if it's bare bones or not, if it's well lit with good sight lines (no shady corners, etc), I would think it would be just as safe as a subway station. Any station that's completely empty seems kinda sketchy at night.

What do you consider a 'major intersection'? The line comes out past Laird. Don Mills? Check. It has to go under the DVP, but that's already a bridge. No need to go under Vic Park -- they just need to fix the intersection as they build the station and it will improve traffic flow. Why bother going under Warden or Birchmount?

So, essentially, an underground station at Don Mills, which is what I thought they were doing anyway (maybe it was someone's fantasy rendering I remember discussing?)

Well here's what I would have as surface stops east of Don Mills: Wynford, Bermondsey, Pharmacy. They're all relatively minor cross streets, and in the case of Wynford, the intersection is already grade-separated.

Trenched/Underground Stations would be: Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount.

The reason why those 3 stations would be below grade is because of the high volume of traffic that those cross streets carry. I have my doubts that an at-grade solution can be implemented properly in such a way that it doesn't have a big negative impact on traffic patterns.

 

[Paleo]

But it wouldn't be fully underground, it would just be grade-separated. The only "underground" part would be right below the street, the rest of the station would be open cut, therefore no ventilation requirements, etc. The emergency exit plan is simply "walk along the walkway up the gradual slope to street level". You're thinking a full underground station, and I'm saying that's not what I'm proposing.

What's higher? The maximum grade that the LRVs can handle or the maximum grade that is allowable to meet accessibility rules for people on foot? How big of a trench will that require? Would this turn the line into a roller coaster ride?

 

[gweed123]

What's higher? The maximum grade that the LRVs can handle or the maximum grade that is allowable to meet accessibility rules for people on foot? How big of a trench will that require? Would this turn the line into a roller coaster ride?

I don't know what the standard is, but I would think designing it like the portals at St. Clair West would work. I don't think too many people would have a problem walking up that slope. And I don't think that that slope on St. Clair West makes it seem too rollercoastery.

Valid concerns though.

 

[M II A II R II K]

This could give a sense of what it would be like to ride it and maybe the other TC routes at ground level.

And @ 5 mins its stopped for almost 4 minutes which isn't even a stop.


[video=youtube;WHYHMw36NAU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHYHMw36NAU[/video]

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

gweed:

Trenched/Underground Stations would be: Victoria Park, Warden, Birchmount.

Or just have that section elevated with Skytrain like stations - given the land uses around the area, visual intrusion isn't a major issue, and I would be inclined to skip a separate Pharmacy stop completely and locate VP station midblock such that the exits at both ends would service VP/Pharmacy. A similar arrangement can be used for Lebovic/Warden.

AoD