[nfitz]

Everything west of Don Mills Road, and fully grade separated, should be the Eglinton Crosstown. Everything to the east of Don Mills Road and partially grade separated should be the Scarborough (L)RT.

What's the logic to that? The Scarborough RT and extension is fully grade-separated, and has a much higher forecast ridership than either the section of Eglinton west of Don Mills Road, or from Don Mills to Kennedy.

Now, if you suggested that perhaps it should be part of the Scarborough-Malvern LRT route that was suppsoed to go along Eglinton to Kingston Road, and up to Morningside and then Sheppard, then that might make some sense.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Logic? I didn't know that was required here. I'm fine with the Scarborough-Malvern LRT suggestion. I'd like the Crosstown to be wholly, and fully, grade separated, that's all.

Ah. You're just obsessed with grade separation, the hell with logic and reasoning! Gotcha.

 

[nfitz]

I'd like the Crosstown to be wholly, and fully, grade separated, that's all.

Why? It's not necessary to deliver the required capacity, and it costs much more, which would both reduce the amount of LRT that can be constructed and increase long-term capital costs.

With this change in the plan, there's only 4 km that won't be grade separated (assuming there's a crossing at Ionview and Swift ... it drops to about 3 km if those two intersections and Rosemount Drive don't let you cross the tracks). That only adds about 3 minutes to the travel time, but saves a lot of money ... and the driver for that change in travel time is primarily the increased number of stations that you have at surface ... you could knock it back to an extra minute if you just removed the excess stations that you wouldn't have had if it was all underground.

 

[andrewpmk]

What's the logic to that? The Scarborough RT and extension is fully grade-separated, and has a much higher forecast ridership than either the section of Eglinton west of Don Mills Road, or from Don Mills to Kennedy.

Eglinton west of and at Don Mills is much higher density than the industrial areas between Kennedy and Scarborough Centre. I would take any ridership projections with a grain of salt, they are notoriously inaccurate. Any redevelopment of the Yonge/Eglinton or Don Mills/Eglinton area could greatly increase those numbers.

 

[nfitz]

Eglinton west of and at Don Mills is much higher density than the industrial areas between Kennedy and Scarborough Centre.

Most of the SRT ridership gets on at Scarborough Town Centre (presumably arriving by bus), not in the industrial areas between Kennedy and Scarborough Town Centre. SRT peak hour ridership already exceeds the forecast 2031 Eglinton Kennedy to Don Mills ridership.

 

[11th]

Hume: Transit could help Eglinton turn the corner

..
“I have a feeling it was the wrong decision to put the tramway below grade,” Grumbach argues. “This will only help in terms of mobility. Putting the tramway underground will have huge consequences for Eglinton. There hasn’t been enough study. We need to know the meaning of this line at the level of the metropolis, not just at the level of people living on either side of the line. What Toronto wants is a vision of the line; many things have been decided already so we must be careful not to go too quickly. I think tunnelling has started too soon.”

In his work in Paris, Grumbach has approached the tramway — what we’d call an LRT — as a way “to pacify the street and create immense value.”
..

Is it a tramway, LRT, rapid transit, or what else??

 

[andrewpmk]

Hume: Transit could help Eglinton turn the corner
Is it a tramway, LRT, rapid transit, or what else??

This is not a very good idea, Hume. Running a streetcar (presumably in mixed traffic) above ground in the central section of Eglinton is a crazy idea. It would be extremely slow and low capacity. Eglinton will be the main transit alternative to Highway 401, connecting the airport, Yonge & Eglinton and Don Mills & Eglinton. It needs to be high capacity and reasonably fast.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

This is not a very good idea, Hume. Running a streetcar (presumably in mixed traffic) above ground in the central section of Eglinton is a crazy idea. It would be extremely slow and low capacity. Eglinton will be the main transit alternative to Highway 401, connecting the airport, Yonge & Eglinton and Don Mills & Eglinton. It needs to be high capacity and reasonably fast.

Where do you get the idea Eglinton will be transit alternative to the 401? The majority of 401 drivers come from outside the city. Eglinton will never be an alternative to the 401.

 

[gweed123]

Hume: Transit could help Eglinton turn the corner
Is it a tramway, LRT, rapid transit, or what else??

It's pretty easy for a guy from Paris to say that above-ground in-median LRT is a good thing when you have massive metro and RER networks to back it up. Toronto doesn't have that.

I think at-grade LRT along the central part of Eglinton would be disastrous for both the transit service and the traffic along that corridor.

 

[sixrings]

It's pretty easy for a guy from Paris to say that above-ground in-median LRT is a good thing when you have massive metro and RER networks to back it up. Toronto doesn't have that.

I think at-grade LRT along the central part of Eglinton would be disastrous for both the transit service and the traffic along that corridor.

I went to his Future Eglinton Seminar the other Wednesday. I have never been so bored and been so frustrated at a public event in my life. First of all it was basically the french guy giving his speech. Which went way over time after they started late. It went so long that someone had to attempt to cut him off. When confronted he said "last slide" acknowledging he had gone a little long. I have been to many of these events and planning sessions but this was brutal. There was a question and answer period at the end to get some public feedback. Too bad more than half the room had left by then. I would have left to if I wasnt directly in the middle and it would have been super awkward. I just felt that if this is how you are going to do meetings then the general public will lose interest and not participate. Thankfully this has not been my experience. But it was one experience too many.

OK so I was not shocked to see read this article today. Hume has suggested this months maybe years ago in other articles so I am not surprised he found someone to endorse his theory. A lot of the french guys presentation was powerpoint slides showing what they have done in france. What this article fails to mention is that on alot of the underground lines in france they put a surface LRT or Streetcar on top. That way you can have express service or local service. The slides did look surprisingly good. In the past I have thought about a Streetcar loop that would be on top of the downtown subway lines. So for instance a street car that would start at yonge and bloor go south to front turn west to university and again north to avenue and bloor and then east to yonge and bloor again. Anyways this article is not mentioning the fact that often where there is underground in france there is a lrt or streetcar at ground level.

The idea is great but there are so many other places I would rather a lrt or streetcar go instead of doubling up a single line. Lawrence, yorkmills, wilson, keele, dufferin, kipling, jane, donmills. Im just happy this thing is getting built and im going to cross my fingers for the future.

 

[MetroMan]

I'm just jumping into this thread and perhaps this has been discussed but now that almost the entire route will be underground, wouldn't it be better to use the cheaper subway technology instead of an LRT which was designed for above surface operation?

Subway from Black Creek to Don Mills. Then LRT into Scarborough. Won't this save money and allow better operation as a subway network with interchangeable trains and shorturning/diversions if required?

 

[sixrings]

I'm just jumping into this thread and perhaps this has been discussed but now that almost the entire route will be underground, wouldn't it be better to use the cheaper subway technology instead of an LRT which was designed for above surface operation?

Subway from Black Creek to Don Mills. Then LRT into Scarborough. Won't this save money and allow better operation as a subway network with interchangeable trains and shorturning/diversions if required?

what happens when you want to extend to the airport? We already spent more money digging to fit in the wires for LRT. My opinion is it at least makes us more flexible so why quit on it now.

 

[MetroMan]

what happens when you want to extend to the airport? We already spent more money digging to fit in the wires for LRT. My opinion is it at least makes us more flexible so why quit on it now.

This isn't an area of my expertise so bare with me here. From what I've gathered over the whole LRT vs subway debate, LRTs are cheaper to build rail infrastructure for as long as they're above ground. Subways are only more expensive because they require tunneling and/or elevated track and underground stations. LRT vehicles themselves are more expensive because they're built to be run in traffic (potential for collisions at intersections).

Since we're building almost the whole thing underground anyway, what's the point of running LRT vehicles that will only be used as intended for a 5km run? It's like buying a Ferrari to drive in sewers. Wouldn't it make so much more sense and really be more cost effective to run existing Rocket trains across the city and then connect to LRTs at Scarborough in the East and then in the West the Finch LRT would be expanded to the airport and connected to the Crosstown at Jane?

Further, wouldn't it be cheaper to build subway specified tunnels which have a smaller radius? Why are we spending so much extra money to work around original plans that haven't panned out? I'm all in favor of LRTs where they meet the demand, but this is no longer an LRT route given all the modifications made. All the money wasted in this technology contortionism could probably pay for the 500M it was quoted to cost to replace the Scarborough SRT with a subway extension but instead, extend the BD line to only as far as Eglinton and bury the remaining part of Eglinton to Don Mills to loop it into the Crosstown as a subway the whole way.

 

[sixrings]

The benefits of LRT is that it is cheaper to build at grade level and that it can be flexible and go underground where there is not enough road space at grade. Essentially this allows you to build a long line that can do two things rather then build one western above ground section, a second central underground section, and a third eastern above ground section. It eliminates transfers and makes the user experience easier. The digging tunnels are already purchased and digging the larger tunnels. There is no going back or getting our money back.., We can run Subway trains in the tunnel but it will still be at lrt costs since the trains are ordered as well. This is one of those maybe we would have done things differently but the decision is done type things. Personally even after knowing the negatives the flexability is still a preference and overall the line will still be cheaper. Others may disagree but thats my opinion.

 

[11th]

They can probably work something out with Bombardier for the purchase. The question is, does Metrolinx (or whoever's responsible) want to. Still not sure what's the obsession with low platforms for "Transit City" lines. It will cost more to build high platforms (as in C-trains, LA metro light rails), but at least it might be a better sell to the general public - less complain of it being "streetcar" lines; and the vehicles wont have those awkwardly facing seats which many people seems to dislike.