[MetroMan]

I see. But I'm not proposing the LRTs in the west and east as little stumps. They would be their own long LRT lines. The LRT connecting to the Crosstown subway in the East would be part of the Sheppard LRT network into Scarborough and the Airport LRT connecting to the Crosstown in the West would be the Finch LRT. Eventually these will connect to the Crosstown LRT this way, we're just changing the location of the connecting points.

Eglinton was originally planned and started construction as a subway. What changed? The available budget has but density along Eglinton has not. It would be served fine with an LRT but at this point we're so close to a subway, we're only limiting ourselves with this artificial roadblock of bureaucratic ink. The Crosstown **is** a subway now. We're just running an extra nice train in it.

Speaking of the train, isn't Bombardier making both the Crosstown trains and Toronto Rockets? The order may be cheaper but with guarantees for long term expansion plans (streetcars, more LRT, new Rockets), that contract can be offset.

 

[sixrings]

what changed is that they realized that the ridership they expected originally was unrealistic and that most of the demand was going downtown..

 

[nfitz]

what changed is that they realized that the ridership they expected originally was unrealistic and that most of the demand was going downtown..

I don't think the Eglinton West demand ever supported subway. The original plan was BRT, but on Metro Council, York and Etobicoke were voting as a block and blocking any of the other subway expansion until Eglinton West was built as a subway instead of a BRT. It was more a political move than based on capacities. I'd be interested to see the long term estimated Eglinton West subway ridership though, I don't think these documents are on-line.

 

[andrewpmk]

I don't think the Eglinton West demand ever supported subway. The original plan was BRT, but on Metro Council, York and Etobicoke were voting as a block and blocking any of the other subway expansion until Eglinton West was built as a subway instead of a BRT. It was more a political move than based on capacities. I'd be interested to see the long term estimated Eglinton West subway ridership though, I don't think these documents are on-line.

The airport, and the huge business park south of it (Airport Corporate Centre) will generate a lot of ridership if the LRT is extended there. It will provide an alternative to the 401 for those people. That area has grown an enormous amount since the early 1990s. Right now the 401 is severely congested in both directions, but there is not much of an alternative. Because the 401 is so severely congested, the Eglinton LRT will I believe act, to some extent, as a substitute, particularly for traffic to the airport area and to Yonge/Eglinton and Don Mills/Eglinton.

Also we should always assume that the demand on Eglinton will grow over time, due to development along the line. Look at the traffic volumes on the 401 when it was first built vs. now, or the ridership on the Yonge and Bloor subways. Building a line with too little capacity means that it will become overcrowded within a decade or two of opening. It always does. It is difficult to find an example of a major highway or subway line (short unfinished lines like Sheppard do not count) in any big city in the world that has not exceeded its capacity soon after opening.

 

[nfitz]

It always does. It is difficult to find an example of a major highway or subway line (short unfinished lines like Sheppard do not count) in any big city in the world that has not exceeded its capacity soon after opening.

Short unfinished lines like Sheppard do count. It hasn't met the estimates for what was built, and revised estimates for 2031 for a completed line prepared recently for TTC are much, much lower than the original ones. I expect it wouldn't take long to find other examples.

However, I don't see what this has to do with Eglinton. The forecasts have never supported subway, and barely support LRT, even the 2031 service to the Airport Corporate Centre, which was factored into the studies. There's no point building subway on Eglinton when LRT more than meets the capacity. Even LRT could meet the entire load from the 401 in rush hour, if you diverted 100% of the traffic.

 

[ssiguy2]

I've always stated that much of TC was a good idea but Toronto couldn't have executed it more poorly if they tried.

The Finch & Sheppard lines have stops so close together that they have turned a potential semi-rapid transit system into an improved local service route. The LRT won't be any faster or more reliable than a BLine BRT but cost 10 times as much. As for Eglinton the whole line should be grade separated. Metrolinx says they don't have the money but this LRT is coming in with subway costs but of the 4 potential technologies, heavy rail, LRT, SkyTrain, monorail, LRT will be the most expensive to run, have the lowest capacity, and the most expensive stations due to having to have larger stations for the same capacity.

LRt as rapid transit wasn't brought back for decoration but because it was an affordable alternative to heavy rail but Egliinton costs have gotten rid of those potential savings............it's the worst possible technology they could have chosen. It will also be the most expensive and lowest capacity technology for the SRT as it requires totally new stations due to increased height needed for the stations unlike heavy rail, SkyTrain, or monorail.

The most cost effective idea is to make the entire Eglinton line SkyTrain elevated to DM and then underground to BC. The money, time, and disruption they would save by just upgrading the SRT to handle MK111 cars would be enough to totally grade separate the line to DM.

 

[andrewpmk]

Short unfinished lines like Sheppard do count. It hasn't met the estimates for what was built, and revised estimates for 2031 for a completed line prepared recently for TTC are much, much lower than the original ones. I expect it wouldn't take long to find other examples.

However, I don't see what this has to do with Eglinton. The forecasts have never supported subway, and barely support LRT, even the 2031 service to the Airport Corporate Centre, which was factored into the studies. There's no point building subway on Eglinton when LRT more than meets the capacity. Even LRT could meet the entire load from the 401 in rush hour, if you diverted 100% of the traffic.

How much of this is due to the fact that North York Centre has seen little job growth for 20 years due to high commercial tax rates following amalgamation? Remember that the downtown core also saw hardly any new office space for 20 years until the Bay-Adelaide Centre was built, due to high tax rates. The job growth went to Mississauga instead, creating the huge traffic jams on the 401/Gardiner going that direction, this is why building a transit line to the airport area is so important in my view. Non-grade separated LRT cannot possibly handle the traffic volumes of a collector-express highway such as the 401.

If North York Centre had seen job growth rates similar to what we saw in the 1980s in the last 20 years, the Sheppard subway would not be underused, if it were extended to its originally planned length.

 

[BurlOak]

The benefits of LRT is that it is cheaper to build at grade level and that it can be flexible and go underground where there is not enough road space at grade.

I generally agree with the above, if the length of the tunnel is small relative to the total length. For FWLRT, the tunnel is maybe 1km at most on a 12km line. There it seems to make sense - although on Finch there are questions about whether BRT would be more appropriate. Similar things can be said about WWLRT and SMLRT.

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel. Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated. At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way. Now we are scrambling and weigh
ng our options to do what is right, or what we have committed to.

It eliminates transfers and makes the user experience easier.

Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

 

[sixrings]

I generally agree with the above, if the length of the tunnel is small relative to the total length. For FWLRT, the tunnel is maybe 1km at most on a 12km line. There it seems to make sense - although on Finch there are questions about whether BRT would be more appropriate. Similar things can be said about WWLRT and SMLRT.

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel. Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated. At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way. Now we are scrambling and weigh
ng our options to do what is right, or what we have committed to.



Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

But if it were subway then lrt then srt it would be two transfers versus 1... if the line goes east of kennedy on eglinton it will be longer as well..

 

[innsertnamehere]

not a forced transfer, but rather they will make you wait until a train running all the way to kennedy arrives. it should operate like the current subway trains, with the terminus mentioned so that the user can chose which trains he gets on. (a user travelling to kennedy would wait for the next train if a train comes into the station that is only travelling to Don Mills)

edit: misunderstood what you were saying

 

[smallspy]

For Eglinton, about 80% of the current 30km stretch is grade separated and about 50% is very expensive tunnel.

18km for the line, and about 12km of that is buried. That's 66% by my math.

Even after the second stage, over 60% will be grade separated.

Another ~12km to the airport, about 2km of which will be grade separated.

That makes the totals 30km, 14km of which is grade separated. Now, my math is not great, but I think that is less than half.

At some stage, someone should have realized that this line should have been completely grade separated and designed it that way.

Yup. Maybe in about 100 years. Maybe more.

The problem is that you don't build transit systems for 100 years in the future. By the time they are ready to be used at capacity, you've completely rebuilt the systems, not to mention paid (over and over and over) for maintenance on them.

Of course, the beauty of building a system like they are going to be building on and under Eglinton is that you can do it incrementally as needed. And while it may cost a bit more in terms of construction, you will save a lot on maintenance over the years.

Unfortunately, I think the current plan is to have a forced transfer for all trains at Kennedy. Not even half the trains continuing from SRT to Eglinton.

Nothing to think about - the TTC has said that trains will not run through. And considering what the passenger demands will be on either side of Kennedy Station, there isn't anything wrong with that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Eug]

They put up some fencing at Eglinton and Bessborough (just east of Bayview):

 

[BurlOak]

18km for the line, and about 12km of that is buried. That's 66% by my math.

My math: Jane to Kennedy = 20 km, SRT Kennedy to Sheppard = 10 km. Total Length of Phase 1 = 30 km
Median LRT from Ferrand (East of Don Mills) to Ionview (West of Kennedy) = 5 km. 15 km burried along Eglinton and 10 km grade-separated SRT.

Totals: Burried = 15/30 = 50%. Grade Separated = 25/30 = 83%

Another ~12km to the airport, about 2km of which will be grade separated.

Also, 2 km grade-separated to Malvern (some of which is burried, but I wont count it)

Totals: Burried = 15/44 = 34%. Grade Separated = 29/44 = 66%

Yup. Maybe in about 100 years. Maybe more.

If you let transit riders go where they want to go, and not add unnecessary transfers, then the timeframe would actually be much less. Possibly as soon as immediately, or as long as the time for the DRL to open - which I suppose could be 100 years but I very much doubt it.


Another thing to look at is how much would it cost to improve the transit line. After all, the underground portions at Don Mills and Kennedy were added to improve the performance of the transit line. This 5km missing piece of Median LRT would probably cost less than $500M extra over the Median LRT. On a $6B line, this is less than 10% extra. For the final configuration, the extra needed to grade-separate (note that much of the Richview Corridor can be built at-grade) the stretch from Jane to Mississauga (Commerce Blvd) would probably be another $500M or so. On an $8B line, this would be in the range of 10-15% extra.

 

[RocketAppliances]

They put up some fencing at Eglinton and Bessborough (just east of Bayview):

There was what I presume to be soil testing (drill rig) happening on Friday.

 

[smallspy]

My math: Jane to Kennedy = 20 km, SRT Kennedy to Sheppard = 10 km. Total Length of Phase 1 = 30 km
Median LRT from Ferrand (East of Don Mills) to Ionview (West of Kennedy) = 5 km. 15 km burried along Eglinton and 10 km grade-separated SRT.

Totals: Burried = 15/30 = 50%. Grade Separated = 25/30 = 83%

Who's talking about the SRT conversion and extension? That's an entirely different project, with a different set of goals, and an different budget. It doesn't have anything to do with Eglinton, and would be built regardless of what happened with Eglinton.

Also, 2 km grade-separated to Malvern (some of which is burried, but I wont count it)

Totals: Burried = 15/44 = 34%. Grade Separated = 29/44 = 66%

Again, different project.

If you let transit riders go where they want to go, and not add unnecessary transfers, then the timeframe would actually be much less. Possibly as soon as immediately, or as long as the time for the DRL to open - which I suppose could be 100 years but I very much doubt it.

Except that the TTC and Metrolinx have done the studies, and you haven't. Now, if you go ahead and commission a study that would indicate that you aren't just pulling numbers out of thin air, it may be worth talking about.

And as for transfers, you have to transfer at some point. It isn't feasible for every single commuter to have a subway line from his office to his house. At some point you need to build in a transfer to a mode or series of modes that carry smaller loads more efficiently, be it LRT, streetcar, bus or jitney.

Another thing to look at is how much would it cost to improve the transit line. After all, the underground portions at Don Mills and Kennedy were added to improve the performance of the transit line. This 5km missing piece of Median LRT would probably cost less than $500M extra over the Median LRT. On a $6B line, this is less than 10% extra. For the final configuration, the extra needed to grade-separate (note that much of the Richview Corridor can be built at-grade) the stretch from Jane to Mississauga (Commerce Blvd) would probably be another $500M or so. On an $8B line, this would be in the range of 10-15% extra.

"Improve the performance" is a pretty vague target to aim for. How are they improving it, exactly? Shorter walks for customers? Reduce traffic congestion on the streets above? They are building underground stations at those two locations for a variety of reasons, but "improve the performance" was not one that came up.

As for your numbers, considering the median cost of tunnelling a line seems to be in the region of $250mil/km including stations while the cost of an in-median line is around 1/5th of that, I'd like to know how you manage to think that they can build another 5km for only another $500mil.

Then, despite all this what-if-ing, there is the final, and most important question: where would you get this money to make it happen? And is the TTC going to be responsible for the additional maintenance costs of the line? Remember, that $8.4bil has to go to all of the projects - Sheppard East, Finch West, converting the SRT and the Eglinton Line, not to mention buying the equipment and building the maintenance facilities. There isn't an infinitely deep bucket of loonies at the end of a rainbow with which to keep adding and adding to the scope of projects.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.