News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.9K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 40K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.1K     0 

Leslie is the CP line

Yes, I know that; it quite conveniently crosses the Richmond Hill line "just south of Lawrence & DVP" and could be joined there. The CP line is straighter and would "take ~5 minutes travel time off the existing Richmond Hill route."

The entire point is that it isn't the existing Richmond Hill line. It's a better one.
 
It's actually pretty apt that you put up a picture of Frank Grimes (and that's why I left it quoted, mods) because it's a pretty apt metaphor for transit planning in Toronto. The Frank Grimes episode was the beginning of the end of the Simpsons for me. It was when the producers and writers took a brilliant show and systematically began to dismantle everything that made it brilliant. Despite tumbling ratings and almost total acknowledgment that they have alienated their entire fanbase, the show continues to be created. And yet, given the fact that the show is unpopular and a mockery of itself, the question is "why is it still being produced?" Are the people in charge of the Simpsons so removed from the experience of the viewers? Are the people who plan transit in Toronto so completely removed from the experience of its users?

The Frank Grimes episode would have made a very good series finale, come to think of it.
 
Our city is full of smart, creative people who are passionate about transit and have genuinely good ideas. Often they come together at roundtables and events and sites like this and they discuss these things and what results is usually clever and cost-effective. Unfortunately, that talent is completely wasted as those ideas remain just that: ideas. Meanwhile, people who actually have decision-making authority come out with bullshit like this. Why is there such a disconnect between homegrown talent in the field of transit planning and the people who actually have control?

...

It's actually pretty apt that you put up a picture of Frank Grimes (and that's why I left it quoted, mods) because it's a pretty apt metaphor for transit planning in Toronto.

I usually try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, they may have some secret data that we don't have access to.

But seriously, it's frustrating seeing ML/TTC make so many mistakes that we'll quite obviously come to regret a few years later. And even more frustrating is that it is so difficult to talk to anyone "in the know". A few decades ago, we could just ring the TTC office and someone could explain why they did or didn't do something. Now the staff that we're supposed to talk to either know nothing about the line, or are instructed not to disclose some information. It's as if they don't want the public to know what they're doing and don't care for input from anybody.
 
Last edited:
I usually try to give them the benefit of the doubt. I mean, they may have some secret data that we don't have access to.

In some cases that might be true, but in others I'm left completely puzzled.

Apart from data, I tend to think of all the stakeholders who might have some vested interest in an outcome and think about how something that might appear dumb to us might benefit them in a narrow-minded way. Usually that's the reason things end up happening the way they do. However, I can't think of anyone who might benefit from something like putting the ROW in the median of Eglinton at Leslie, including people who don't care about transit.

Apart from the users of the line, I've identified the following stakeholders. In no way can I possibly see how it might benefit them.

1. Construction company that received the tender to do the project - no benefit, because the alignment requires crossing the eastbound lanes of Eglinton (so delays to construction, requirement to close lanes = cost overruns on a fixed budget).
2. EMS - no benefit, because the transition to median alignment of line now disrupts the flow of emergency vehicles (also can't cross into oncoming traffic, if necessary because of concrete curb in centre).
3. Local NIMBYs who demanded a stop at Leslie in the first place - no benefit, because even though they only have to cross half the width of Eglinton to get to their station, the median alignment disrupts the light cycle which slows down the efficiency of moving cars through, and most of these people primarily use cars as their means of transportation.

You see what I mean?
 
In some cases that might be true, but in others I'm left completely puzzled.

Apart from data, I tend to think of all the stakeholders who might have some vested interest in an outcome and think about how something that might appear dumb to us might benefit them in a narrow-minded way. Usually that's the reason things end up happening the way they do. However, I can't think of anyone who might benefit from something like putting the ROW in the median of Eglinton at Leslie, including people who don't care about transit.

Apart from the users of the line, I've identified the following stakeholders. In no way can I possibly see how it might benefit them.

1. Construction company that received the tender to do the project - no benefit, because the alignment requires crossing the eastbound lanes of Eglinton (so delays to construction, requirement to close lanes = cost overruns on a fixed budget).
2. EMS - no benefit, because the transition to median alignment of line now disrupts the flow of emergency vehicles (also can't cross into oncoming traffic, if necessary because of concrete curb in centre).
3. Local NIMBYs who demanded a stop at Leslie in the first place - no benefit, because even though they only have to cross half the width of Eglinton to get to their station, the median alignment disrupts the light cycle which slows down the efficiency of moving cars through, and most of these people primarily use cars as their means of transportation.

You see what I mean?

Great analysis Hipster; it leaves me scratching my head as well.

A couple of points: The original 2010 EA (and as far as I know) the present plan does NOT have the LRT tracks crossing the Eglinton eastbound traffic lanes. The portal will be in the median between Brentcliffe and Leslie so the LRT will emerge from the tunnel in the median (although the launch shaft is to the south of the present Eglinton Avenue East). The eastbound lanes of Eglinton will be moved so they swing south of where they are now (after the tunnelling is complete) and so Eglinton will "bulge" to the south at the point of the finished portal. The LRT will remain in the median (but cross the Leslie intersection) until it enters the portal west of Don Mills station.

As far as NIMBYs and the Leslie stop you're right but they had help by I believe two stakeholder groups: one whose motivation I still can't understand and one who while trying to make a bad plan better, went for a poor solution, explained it even more poorly and when it was shot down at public meetings reverted to the inferior original plan instead of going for one which (I believe) could have satisfied almost everyone.

The NIMBYs are the people who live in the 3 condo buildings on Leslie north of the Toyota/Lexus On the Park dealerships. I'd love to know how many of them actually take transit but they didn't want to lose their stop. Ok fair enough, if I was them I'd whine for it too, but it doesn't mean they should necessarily be satiated.

They were aided by the Leaside Property Owners Association (LPOA) (group one from above) who championed their cause and positioned it as fighting to preserve a "Leaside" stop. I'm a Leasider and they didn't speak for me, but at the public meetings last winter and in the press (local) and The Star it was spun as "Leasiders fight proposed LRT changes". The Leslie stop and those condos are NOT EVEN IN LEASIDE. Perhaps a lot of retired/former Leasiders live there now and that was LPOA's motivation but if I was an active LPOA member I'd be steamed that they were spending energy on advocating for Leslie. No Leasiders are going to walk down the hill from Brentcliffe and use Leslie stop. I still am befuddled by the LPOA's position and passion in fighting the proposed tunnel extension to Don Mills. If anything, it would improve traffic flow in Leaside by leaving the Leslie-Eglinton intersection intact and free from LRTs while allowing the LRTs to travel unbothered by traffic to Don Mills - a logical point to change the headways.

The second group that (unintentionally) helped the Leslie condo NIMBYs was Metrolinx itself. When the first plan was released in 2010, I and others asked about a south-side alignment between Brentcliffe and Don Mills. We were told there's plenty of time to look into that and "we're going to study the alignment for that stretch". Then out of the blue in late 2012, Metrolinx announces the study was done and they want to bury the whole line to Don Mills. I admit that my first (selfish) reaction was hooray! No messed up Leslie intersection, no launch shaft in the hillside in Leaside and a sensible LRT right-of-way right through to the hub of Don Mills. The launch shaft in the corner of the Science Centre parking lot would be much less disruptive during construction than the one between Brentcliffe and Leslie. I do admit though that I privately thought that tunnelling the whole thing was a bit of overkill. I knew the Leslie NIMBYs would be mad at losing their stop (although I didn't dream the LPOA would take up their cause.) What I feared most was that people would complain about the expense of the extra tunnelling.
Here's where Metrolinx really blew it. Not only was the tunnel option overkill (although I personally would be happy with it), Metrolinx started giving weak (I'm being charitable here) reasoning for their decision. They said they could NOT do the launch shaft at Brentcliffe. Later thanks to the NIMBYs, political pressure from their Councillor Jaye Robinson and (inexplicably) pressure from the LPOA and Leaside Councillor John Parker they went back to the original plan. So it turns out they COULD do the launch shaft at Brentcliffe (albeit with more difficulty than Don Mills). I and others argued for a south-side alignment (again) and then were told that we don't want to try and amend the EA as it's too volatile on City Council to change the Master Agreement. When pressed as to why the south-side (surface) alignment wasn't proposed instead of the tunnel they said that they looked at that but it was rejected during the process in winter 2012-13. When I looked back at the presentation from January 2013

http://thecrosstown.ca/sites/default/files/January 2013 Open House for web.pdf

(see page 26), they said it couldn't be done because .. (wait for it - it still doesn't resolve the problem of the Brentcliffe launch shaft!!!). Talk about going in circles.

Bottom line, south-side alignment with an at-grade Leslie stop would give NIMBYs their stop, allow Leslie-Eglinton intersection to remain intact, cost less than extended tunnelling and allow complete LRT right-of-way through to Don Mills. Operationally better all around for cars and LRT and much less disruption during construction. But it looks as though it won't happen because they gave false reasons for the changes originally, got caught in a lie and now just want "to get tunnelling" so we're not making any more changes.

Phew! It boggles my mind.
P.S. Sorry for the rambling rant above but that's the way I saw (see) it.
 
Last edited:
Someone should warn Rob Ford that this will disrupt cars. Then he'll get them to change it to the south side alignment. Or tunnelled. Or cancel the whole thing :-/
 
Thanks for that analysis, Ozman. It makes a lot more sense now. Based on how you describe it, it sounds like Metrolinx was primarily at fault. As you said, the NIMBY groups would be expected to want a Leslie stop, but they never demanded that stop to be aligned in the centre of Eglinton. Metrolinx needs to:

1. Grow a spine
2. Come up with reasons for doing something that are a little more shatterproof, and,
3. If they must give in because of their inability to do 1 and 2, to do it in a way that isn't the least convenient for all parties involved, including Metrolinx.

This organization has mostly been a disappointment since the day it was founded. Ironically, I remember that the reasons for Metrolinx's creation was to make transit planning and delivery more regionally cohesive and effective, yet the end result has been a grab bag of loosely connected projects that are even more dictated by local squabbling than before - and now it's even worse since it's at the intra-city level!
 
Great analysis Hipster; it leaves me scratching my head as well.

....................

Phew! It boggles my mind.
P.S. Sorry for the rambling rant above but that's the way I saw (see) it.

Excellent post.

Two things I will add. This is close to a $4B project for the underground portion of the LRT, and by completely messing up this portion for a matter of a maybe tens of millions of dollars, they are severly reducing the ability of the line to meet future demand.

If they can be so poor at designing this line, how can we have any confidence in any of the other plans that Metrolinx has. Could they be wrong about not elevating the Don Mills to Kennedy portion and connecting it to the SRT. Even the Sheppard and Finch LRT have doubt - either they could have been subway (less likely) or they could have been BRT. How about the decision to prioritize 10 LRT's and BRT's ahead of the DRL. And to think that on some other threads, people are saying that the current Provincial Liberals are the one to be trusted to provide good transit.
 
... Metrolinx needs to:

1. Grow a spine
2. Come up with reasons for doing something that are a little more shatterproof, and,
3. If they must give in because of their inability to do 1 and 2, to do it in a way that isn't the least convenient for all parties involved, including Metrolinx.

This organization has mostly been a disappointment since the day it was founded. Ironically, I remember that the reasons for Metrolinx's creation was to make transit planning and delivery more regionally cohesive and effective, yet the end result has been a grab bag of loosely connected projects that are even more dictated by local squabbling than before - and now it's even worse since it's at the intra-city level!

Well put.
 
Excellent post.

Two things I will add. This is close to a $4B project for the underground portion of the LRT, and by completely messing up this portion for a matter of a maybe tens of millions of dollars, they are severly reducing the ability of the line to meet future demand.

If they can be so poor at designing this line, how can we have any confidence in any of the other plans that Metrolinx has. Could they be wrong about not elevating the Don Mills to Kennedy portion and connecting it to the SRT. Even the Sheppard and Finch LRT have doubt - either they could have been subway (less likely) or they could have been BRT. How about the decision to prioritize 10 LRT's and BRT's ahead of the DRL. And to think that on some other threads, people are saying that the current Provincial Liberals are the one to be trusted to provide good transit.

Or the Scarborough subway even. That thing looks like it was planned on the back of a rest stop diner napkin.
 
3. Local NIMBYs who demanded a stop at Leslie in the first place - no benefit, because even though they only have to cross half the width of Eglinton to get to their station, the median alignment disrupts the light cycle which slows down the efficiency of moving cars through, and most of these people primarily use cars as their means of transportation.

I am afraid I am one of those NIMBY's - even though I do not live there. After the underground to Don Mills proposal last December, I suggested a south side alignment, with a separate bridge, station on south between Leslie and CPR, jack and bore tunnels through CPR embankment, switching to underground at Don Mills. I would have never guessed they would do what they did.

It is strange. Over 90% of people want grade separation to Don Mills, yet they do not do it. Over 50% want grade-sepataion between Don Mills and Kennedy, yet they do not do it. Then, maybe a few dozen people (about 0.005%) want the Ferrand and Leslie stop put back and they listen.
 
It's because the people who are vocal over what they want are the ones in the minority. Probably also because they knew if they sent the EA back to council for approval they may open another huge can of worms they have no interest in opening.
 
It's because the people who are vocal over what they want are the ones in the minority. Probably also because they knew if they sent the EA back to council for approval they may open another huge can of worms they have no interest in opening.

That's what I've heard too, however they DID go back to council to get approval for the EA amendment for the Mt. Dennis end of the line. It was unanimously approved the same week (maybe the same day) as Metrolinx announced that they were abandoning the EA amendment for the Brentcliffe to Don Mills alignment. Again, Metrolinx' rationale (or lack thereof) is baffling to me.
 

Back
Top