[Sakraycore]

The sad thing is a co-worker of mine who is pro-LRT (and someone who is very against the SSE) has told me repeatedly that wait until the Eglinton LRT is done, it will change your mind about LRTs. This LRT is supposed to stand for how wonderful a properly done, modern, next-generation LRT can be.

..Yea I don't think that's gonna happen.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

People in this city do not realize how good they have it. I remember in New York where at one station, to make a transfer, we had to actually climb stairs and leave the station, cross a street and go back downstairs. And people in Scarborough complain about the transfer at kennedy!

Are you talking about the Broadway-Lafayette transfer from the B, D or F to the uptown 6 train at Bleecker? That station has been redesigned so you no longer have to go outside.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Fatigue and budget are not an excuse for such a drop off . If bland and simple was the design choice, do it for all stops. There are clearly certain areas where many people live a lifestyle which allows for these strong localized community groups to form to fight these extra details.

Like I have said, this is the urban context:

This is what the most modern line in the city got so far and still have a significant ridership:

(Fairlyoddparents1234/Wikipedia)

And you want to argue this is a conspiracy?

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Like I have said, this is the urban context:

View attachment 107608

There aren't all that many people living along that stretch right now.

AoD

But there will be:

Those stops needs to be improved

 

[Leo_Chan]

Like I have said, this is the urban context:

View attachment 107608

There aren't all that many people living along that stretch right now.

AoD

Another SmartCentre? How many SmartCentres does the TTC currently have proximity to (5? 10?)?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

But there will be: Those stops needs to be improved

Why, does it affect ridership? If having a few towers up is a prerequisite to improvement (and to what end?), half of the core lines would have to be touched up by now. By all means extend the cover and have shelters - but is there a need to go above and beyond that? Please don't tell me it is "required" for people to chose transit - people choose it because it is frequent, reliable and useful, not because the stops are pretty and not "clean minimalist".

"Just another streetcar line" is when you have to stop at every block, every redlight, share your ROW, have no transit priority - not we don't have stops with bells and whistles.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

"Just another streetcar line" is when you have to stop at every block, every redlight, share your ROW, have no transit priority - not we don't have stops with bells and whistles.
AoD

If that St Clair style design were adopted and extended for the full length of the Crosstown platforms, I would say that design is sufficient. Those VIVA stations are over the top.

What was objectionable in the original render was the bus-length roofing for a platform that is three Flexities long. That is not only a lack of shelter, it actually is bad design because in poor weather the riders will huddle under that small bit of roof. When the tram arrives, they will all crowd towards the one or two closest doors. What a longer roof would do is encourage people to spread out along the platform, making boarding faster as people would use all available doors. That is functionality and awareness of human behaviour, not artsy design or creature comfort.

You could use the same rationale to ask why we are installing wifi on transit. ("When I was your age, I got my internet over the phone lines on a 9.6KB modem......")

The point is, yes....we want some reasonable affordable amenities. Personally I don't think it's wrong to address wind, rain, and snow, or hot sun. This idea that we are hearty Canadians who can't wait to be cold, and standing in a puddle in the rain is somehow good for us, is rather precious. The platform will have to be kept clear of snow and ice to meet AODA anyways. Those NYC style snowbanks on the platform are no longer acceptable (I suspect that NYC station was built before 1940, or earlier). And yes, people in those condos will have a choice of trudging through the sleet to stand in the open on the platform, or taking the elevator to their heated underground garage and climbing into their cars without even donning a parka and mittens. It's prudent to make the choice an attractive one.

- Paul

 

[kotsy]

Are you talking about the Broadway-Lafayette transfer from the B, D or F to the uptown 6 train at Bleecker? That station has been redesigned so you no longer have to go outside.

Even if he isn't, he's talking about one of the very few out of probably dozens or even hundreds of subway transfer points that make you do that.

 

[Cobra]

Why, does it affect ridership? If having a few towers up is a prerequisite to improvement (and to what end?), half of the core lines would have to be touched up by now. By all means extend the cover and have shelters - but is there a need to go above and beyond that? Please don't tell me it is "required" for people to chose transit - people choose it because it is frequent, reliable and useful, not because the stops are pretty and not "clean minimalist".

"Just another streetcar line" is when you have to stop at every block, every redlight, share your ROW, have no transit priority - not we don't have stops with bells and whistles.

AoD

Above and beyond??? Decent protection from the elements is luxury to you?
I don't get it and posting a St.Clair streetcar shelter and saying that it's fine, further reinforce the LRT is a streetcar stigmata.

I've lived on St.Clair and when the weather is truly crap, a 5 minutes wait feels like 10 minutes. Minus 30 degrees feels like 15+ minutes and that's when the TTC isn't mismanaging the line.

It just turns people off and they'll just use Uber instead. If they know that even if the LRT is outside a closed shelters protects them from a blizzard or thunderstorm while heat lamps warms them up, they might actually be more inclined to use transit. Give them second rate and they'll treat it as such...

Hence the whole perception that "subway is superior". TTC did themselves not favors with the way they operate streetcars while neglecting the whole "customers experience". They tend to forget to treat their riders as customers, so I don't blame some people to not buy the TTC selling LRT as the same as in Europe based on what they've done with streetcars the whole time. It's not bad nor terrible but god knows that everyone agrees that there's so much room to do better.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Above and beyond??? Decent protection from the elements is luxury to you?
I don't get it and posting a St.Clair streetcar shelter and saying that it's fine, further reinforce the LRT is a streetcar stigmata.

I've lived on St.Clair and when the weather is truly crap, a 5 minutes waits feels like 10 minutes. Minus 30 degrees feels like 15 minutes. It just turns people off and they'll just use UBER! If they know that even if the LRT is outside but hey, a closed shelters protects them from a blizzard or thunderstorm while heat lamps warms them up like the Loop's stations in Chicago, they might actually be more inclined to use transit. Give them second rate and they'll treat it as such...

See crs' response above. No one is suggesting we shouldn't have decent protection from the elements - what I have an issue with with the assertion that we need to match Viva in order to provide a competitive transportation option - and that not doing so is a "slight".

Let's be honest - just how many people chose not to ride St. Clair because they didn't of what you have said, vs. speed, wait-time, reliability and convenience deficiencies? Unless you live literally across the street from the stop, you'd have to brave some degree of the elements just to get there. Distance to stop in inclement weather will be the biggest turnoff for most.

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Let's be honest - just how many people chose not to ride St. Clair because they didn't of what you have said, vs. speed, wait-time, reliability and convenience deficiencies? Unless you live literally across the street from the stop, you'd have to brave some degree of the elements just to get there.

Getting to your stop isn't the problem. It's the same for those having to walk to a subway station. The problem is arriving at your stop and you're exposed to the elements longer than you should because the TTC can't manage properly a line (5 streetcars than nothing for 15 minutes??) that's in it's own ROW, seriously make people give up when that happens enough times to them.

All I'm saying is people can be more tolerant if all those issues you mentioned aren't aggravated by a lack of protection from the elements

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Getting to your stop isn't the problem. It's the same for those having to walk to a subway station. The problem is arriving at your stop and you're exposed to the elements longer than you should because the TTC can't manage properly a line (5 streetcars than nothing for 15 minutes??) that's in it's own ROW, seriously make people give up when that happens enough times to them

Which is my point - what make or break isn't the stop itself, but how well you run the line. All the creature comforts can't save you if you fail at that - just because you have a heat lamp won't keep people from giving up on transit.

AoD

 

[Cobra]

Which is my point - what make or break isn't the stop itself, but how well you run the line. All the creature comforts can't save you if you fail at that - just because you have a heat lamp won't keep people from giving up on transit.

AoD

If buying heat lamps makes them tolerate operational mishaps a bit longer results of being more tolerant, then the TTC wins as well. Funding being pegged to ridership, it isn't in their best interest to lose customers either. Poor customer service and overall service is a leading cause of people just deserting transit. I don't want to nitpick on this but the TTC needs to do better in viewing their riders as "customers/clients" and not cattle that needs to be moved, hence the VIVA example provided to you earlier, I'm guessing. That's one thing they are doing right and much better than TTC

 

[Sakraycore]

St.Clair stops isn't enough to brave the cold Toronto weather for longer than 1-2 minutes..

At minimum, LRT stops need to be enclosed and have inside heating for them to be taken seriously vs subway.

5-10 minutes of walking is bearable if you know you will be able to rest in a REAL shelter for awhile.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

If buying heat lamps makes them tolerate operational mishaps a bit longer results of being more tolerant, then the TTC wins as well. Funding being pegged to ridership, it isn't in their best interest to lose customers either. Poor customer service and overall service is a leading cause of people just deserting transit. I don't want to nitpick on this but the TTC needs to do better in viewing their riders as "customers/clients" and not cattle that needs to be moved, hence the VIVA example provided to you earlier, I'm guessing. That's one thing they are doing right and much better than TTC

I think it got sated earlier in the thread that they don't want to put heat lamps in them because they don't want to attract homeless people to use them for shelter thus driving away people from boarding. Alos in theory you shouldn't have to wait very long for one of them to come along, I'm not sure if they have yet stated what they want the headways to be. Also comparing the headways of streetcars in mixed traffic isn't really good representation. St. Clair Spadina and Harborfront all run a bit smother except for a few places because of crossing over streets her they need to wait for cars to clear the intersection.