[BurlOak]

To be blunt, Vancouver really screwed themselves with the Canada line the way they built it. It is indeed the main N-S line with no clear possibles alternatives, and it's ability to expand is very limited in the future. Its situation is going to be much worse compared to the Yonge line in Toronto once it reaches capacity.

While it is bad there are plenty of alternatives, Arbutus will eventually have LRT and Oak or Granville could have a subway/skytrain.

Many people have said that if Eglinton gets overloaded, we can built a parallel line on Lawrence or Wilson-York Mills-Ellesmere.
Same thing for Vancouver.
I don't know Vancouver that well, but I would suspect that it is (or will be soon) similar to Toronto that those in the near downtown area are not able to board the trains - so new parallel lines needed.

 

[BurlOak]

Eglinton should be a completely grade separated line but Miller`s `LRT or nothing mantra` greatly limits the speed, reliability, and capacity of the line.

I disagree with a fully grade separated line, especially Eglinton West line. It would be a redundancy of the UPX. If the crosstown is built as an automated line, Eglinton West should be retained as LRT. The section east of Leslie to Kennedy could be grade separated.

Are we talking present tense or past tense.

There seems to be widespread agreement that it should have been grade-separated.
But can it still be done now - which seems to be your implication.
Haven't heard any announcement or rumor on whether the new government plans on changing anything here.

Rob Ford announced virtually immediately that he would cancel ECLRT (and others), and it took him about 4 months to come up with a new plan (combined ECLRT/SRT). Here the urgency is even greater (since it's already under construction). The silence suggested that Ford concedes that its too late to fix the flaws.

 

[MisterF]

^Rob Ford's plan was equally flawed, which would have needlessly buried the entire line. Outside the core area, elevated would have been more cost effective.

The probable difference: the bare-minimum standard of public realm design and implementation is just much higher in Vancouver and environs. Both the underground and elevated sections of the Canada Line got very, very nice street-level upgrades rolled in as part of the construction, and as compensation of sorts to local communities for the attendant disruption. Cambie (the underground part) and No3 Road (the elevated part) simply look great. Given that the central section of Eglinton isn’t even getting its Hydro wires buried despite being torn up down to the dirt for the better part of a decade, I find it hard to believe Toronto could easily pull off a similar result.

I assume you're referring to Eglinton Connects? Has it been stated that the overhead hydro wires won't be buried as part of that plan? Although the standard in many other cities is better, Toronto has done some very good streetscape projects. The suburban parts of Eglinton are urban wastelands already. Adding an overhead transit line to the Golden Mile will barely make a difference in the experience of that street whether it gets streetscape upgrades or not.

 

[TransitBart]

Lets say in 2023 when the Crosstown has opened for a year and it is already at capacity for the planned initial frequencies and train length and Eglinton Station is over capacity, what would be the next step to increase capacity on the line?

Ride to Cedarvale.

 

[steveintoronto]

Leo_Chan said: ↑

Lets say in 2023 when the Crosstown has opened for a year and it is already at capacity for the planned initial frequencies and train length and Eglinton Station is over capacity, what would be the next step to increase capacity on the line?

The Mid-Town line.
GO TRANSIT'S FUTURE MIDTOWN LINE
(Last Modified on July 20, 2017 4:48 PM)
Text by Daniel Garcia and James Bow.


The Midtown GO Train line is a possible name for a decades-old proposal for GO Transit to route commuter trains off of the tracks into Union Station and along the Canadian Pacific tracks running through the middle of Toronto, north of Dupont Street. Such a route could connect with the Toronto subway at Kipling, Dupont and Summerhill stations before heading to the northeastern reaches of Scarborough. West of Kipling, a Midtown train would follow the route of the GO Milton line, serving the middle and northwestern stretches of Mississauga. East of Scarborough, the Midtown train could bring commuter rail service to the planned community of Seaton in northern Pickering, and even to the city of Peterborough.


https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2106.shtml

(Past) Time to get working on the Missing Link.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

The Midtown line is not really competing for the same type of transit users that will be using the Crosstown.

It is a bit like saying that upgrading the Richmond Hill GO Line would be a substitute for building the Relief Line.

 

[Rainforest]

The CL, unlike the other SkyTrain lines, was built short-sighted and it will come back and bite them in the ass. That said, the Canada Line still has higher capacity than the Eglinton line with it`s 100 meter stations as opposed to 50 meter CL ones. CL can run every 90 seconds and it is impossible for ANY grade line to run more than every 3 minutes especially one that goes right down the centre of a busy road. The CL is cheaper to run due to automation, is faster, and far more reliable than Eglinton.

Eglinton should be a completely grade separated line but Miller`s `LRT or nothing mantra` greatly limits the speed, reliability, and capacity of the line.

Eglinton can run with 2-min headways if needed, and won't be less reliable than CL (or even than our subway Lines 1 and 2; they have delays on a regular basis even though they never run in street median).

Speed is another matter, the Canada Line obviously wins in that respect.

 

[Rainforest]

Regarding Eglinton West, full grade-separation may be an overkill given the relatively modest ridership predictions. However, separating at some of the major intersections would be a useful compromise.

Btw, Eglinton West is not duplicating the UPX. Eglinton West will connect to the employment cluster south of the airport; UPX doesn't serve that area at all.

 

[steveintoronto]

The Midtown line is not really competing for the same type of transit users that will be using the Crosstown.
It is a bit like saying that upgrading the Richmond Hill GO Line would be a substitute for building the Relief Line.

If it comes to building a parallel line to supplement Crosstown, Midtown would indeed alleviate a good part of the load on Crosstown. Just as Crossrail alleviates subway overcrowding in London. And increasing the service on the Richmond Hill line, and in fact *merging it* in parts with the Relief Line, would in fact greatly increase capacity on that corridor, the pre-requisite being it is RER single deck for the in-tunnel sections, DDs could still run express down the valley to Union.

 

[Rainforest]

If it comes to building a parallel line to supplement Crosstown, Midtown would indeed alleviate a good part of the load on Crosstown.

Midtown RER would be very helpful, and not just to shift the load from Crosstown. It would open a list of new viable connections.

Unfortunately, the midtown corridor is CP's mainline, and they won't allow frequent passenger service unless they get that rail bypass to the north of the city.

If it comes to building a parallel line to supplement Crosstown, Midtown would indeed alleviate a good part of the load on Crosstown. Just as Crossrail alleviates subway overcrowding in London. And increasing the service on the Richmond Hill line, and in fact *merging it* in parts with the Relief Line, would in fact greatly increase capacity on that corridor, the pre-requisite being it is RER single deck for the in-tunnel sections,

That configuration would do marvels, but only if the city departments are open to designing DRL South for RER single decks. But at present they seem to be set on building a TTC gauge line.

DDs could still run express down the valley to Union.

That section would still be needed to handle diesel trains serving the northern sections of Bala / RH corridor if it's not electrified for the whole length, as well as The Canadian and possibly the restored Northlander.

However in terms of speed, that "express" would be no faster than the tunneled / DRL branch running with multiple stops but taking a more direct route.

 

[rbt]

It is a bit like saying that upgrading the Richmond Hill GO Line would be a substitute for building the Relief Line.

I'm pretty sure a RH GO line running at 5 minute frequencies making stops at most major streets (Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, York Mills, Eglinton, express to Union would be a perfectly viable substitute for the north component of the relief line.

Reports compare Option A @ $5B and Option B @ $1B; it's no surprise that Option A has higher capacity. That extra $4B can solve a large number of issues for Option B, and surface lines are much cheaper to maintain.

 

[robmausser]

When Eglinton is jammed to the gills (which won't be long if the success of something like the Canada Line and the general high ridership of the TTC is accounted for) I wouldn't be so sure, Toronto doesn't have a good reputation for building the lines that are needed

Wont ever happen.

They can easily upgrade to 3 car trains, and then theyve designed the underground stations to be expandable to 4 car trains by blowing out some walled off areas on either sides of the platforms.

The latter would take some work to upgrade the above ground stations but its feasible.

4 car trains is well beyond the anticipated capacity of the Crosstown, and is an emergency situation only, but is feasible.

 

[steveintoronto]

That configuration would do marvels, but only if the city departments are open to designing DRL South for RER single decks. But at present they seem to be set on building a TTC gauge line.

This is one of the instances where 'uploading' the TTC subways to the Province may make a huge amount of sense. The City still hasn't the funding for its share, and ML already has full responsibility for the northern leg, and executive power over the southern leg, and yet the parochial pedantic approach to what this can do prevails still. It could have a massive regional effect for almost the same amount of expenditure if built as a metro looping through the core and connecting run-through to RER each end.

If this were Paris, it would be double decker RER without any second thoughts, relieving the subways rather than further involving them.

 

[Allandale25]

^ great catch!

 

[W. K. Lis]

BTW. A Bombardier Toronto Rocket subway car is 23.9 m in length. A Bombardier Flexity Freedom light rail car is 30.8 m. So 3 light rail cars would be about 92.4 in length, about 3.8 subway cars in length. Almost the same length as a Line 4 Sheppard subway train.