[The REAL]

Can‘t we do any transit project on time or on budget? We started construction of Eglinton Crosstown in 2011. Sometime in 2023 is more likely fourth quarter 23 or early 2024. How can it possibly take a dozen years or more to get this done?

It's ABSOLUTELY embarrassing and crazy to think that this line could take this long. meanwhile China has been building different modes of train lines left and right. It's pathetic and it makes you think that we live in a 3 world country the way transit construction takes this long in Toronto.

 

[Richard White]

It's ABSOLUTELY embarrassing and crazy to think that this line could take this long. meanwhile China has been building different modes of train lines left and right. It's pathetic and it makes you think we that we live in a 3 world country the way transit construction takes this long in Toronto.

You really need to stop comparing us to China.

The fact is there are alot of different reasons why China builds things faster from lax labour standards to cheaper materials.

Canada and specifically Ontario have much higher standards, restrictive policies and very strict building codes. You couldn't do half the stuff you do in China and not get yourself sued a million ways from Sunday.

 

[trtcttc]

If you look at any developing country, the timeline and cost for infrastructure becomes more expensive and longer as the country develops. TTC’s line 1 (Union to Eglington) was built in 5 years. As worker’s wages rise, regulations improve, complexity increase, cost and timelines are going to increase too.
Not to mention, China is so dense that I doubt you’d find a subway line that has lower ridership than Eglington is projecting, anywhere in China.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You really need to stop comparing us to China.

The fact is there are alot of different reasons why China builds things faster from lax labour standards to cheaper materials.

Canada and specifically Ontario have much higher standards, restrictive policies and very strict building codes. You couldn't do half the stuff you do in China and not get yourself sued a million ways from Sunday.

A communist dictatorship wherein one can seize anyone’s property and ignore all environmental and safety laws, immune from litigation or oversight would make for speedy construction.

 

[Richard White]

A communist dictatorship wherein one can seize anyone’s property and ignore all environmental and safety laws, immune from litigation or oversight would make for speedy construction.

You said it. Not me.

lol.

 

[NoahB]

You are all sitting here making excuses why Canada/Toronto cant do better while European countries build hundreds of kilometers of subways at China-like speeds. That is embarrassing...

Even Montreal is building faster now by sensibly building elevated guideways, reusing existing corridors, and cutting unnecessary local roadblocks for the REM. They are now on track to doubling their metro network less than 9 years from initial announcement to completion.

 

[Admiral Beez]

You are all sitting here making excuses why Canada/Toronto cant do better while European countries build hundreds of kilometers of subways at China-like speeds. That is embarrassing...

No one is making excuses, but comparing the circumstances Canada must work within to China’s is just a distraction. A better comparison is Europe, so you’re right to bring us there.

IMO the least place needing investment is the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor, since it’s already popular. Instead we need to get good service from London and Sarnia to Toronto, and Halifax and Quebec City to Montreal. And why does any discussion on intercity rail in Canada always ignore the west?

 

[ARG1]

No one is making excuses, but comparing the circumstances Canada must work within to China’s is just a distraction. A better comparison is Europe, so you’re right to bring us there.

IMO the least place needing investment is the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor, since it’s already popular. Instead we need to get good service from London and Sarnia to Toronto, and Halifax and Quebec City to Montreal. And why does any discussion on intercity rail in Canada always ignore the west?

The discussion for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal is there is because despite its popularity, the corridor is beyond atrocious. Trains never arrive on time, and there are so few trains that operate that at certain key dates booking a train is nearly impossible. You don't know pain and suffering until you want to get home during reading week, but all of the trains are full so you have to fork over an additional $17 and wait for hours trying to get on a greyhound *shudders*. Not to mention how painfully slow the service is and how it can be SO MUCH FASTER.

Anyway, wrong thread for this.

 

[asher__jo]

We can all agree this project has been poorly managed and horribly delayed. I think that can be somewhat attributed to Metrolinx' PP3 model and the consortium of companies that were awarded the contract. And of course we have to consider how many complications a megaproject like this can run into (issues with supporting structures of that exist structures of line 1 at Yonge-Eglinton and Cedarvale). And then of course there's COVID and political meddling that drives up costs....is Montreal doing it better, or have they just avoided delays by completely handing off transit planning to a private investment firm?

 

[Admiral Beez]

We can all agree this project has been poorly managed and horribly delayed.

Most annoying will be the final lack of accountability. The same Metrolinks leadership and the same engineering and construction firms and managers will be in control of the next transit project, presumably the Ontario Line. I’m 50 years old, and I expect to be in my 60s before the Ontario Line is finished and operating.

The consequence of taking forever to build transit is that the need you planned to fill has changed in the fifteen to twenty years it takes from ideation to operation. LRT cars might have been a good idea in the early 2000s, but may be unsuitably small when there are several hundred thousand new people living along the Eglinton Crosstown twenty-five years later. I just hope someone designed in expansion capacity.

 

[trtcttc]

Most annoying will be the final lack of accountability. The same Metrolinks leadership and the same engineering and construction firms and managers will be in control of the next transit project, presumably the Ontario Line. I’m 50 years old, and I expect to be in my 60s before the Ontario Line is finished and operating.

The consequence of taking forever to build transit is that the need you planned to fill has changed in the fifteen to twenty years it takes from ideation to operation. LRT cars might have been a good idea in the early 2000s, but may be unsuitably small when there are several hundred thousand new people living along the Eglinton Crosstown twenty-five years later. I just hope someone designed in expansion capacity.

That’s part of the problem though. In North America there just isn’t enough transit projects that the talent is not there. In Europe and Asia-Pac, there’s so much more know-how in the industry

 

[W. K. Lis]

When Toronto built the original Yonge Subway in the late 1940's and early 1950's, they used the New York Subway network as models (plural). When Montreal built their Metro, they used Paris as their model. Both existing models, with "upgrades" for the time.

 

[nfitz]

Even Montreal is building faster now by sensibly building elevated guideways, reusing existing corridors, and cutting unnecessary local roadblocks for the REM. They are now on track to doubling their metro network less than 9 years from initial announcement to completion.

As impressive as the new light rail in Montreal is, in terms of project time, we shouldn't overplay this. It might only be 9 years from the announcement of the current iteration, but the planning for the 5 stations south of Central started about 20 years ago. Construction on the most significant, most expensive piece of new alignment (from Nun's Island to Brossard) started in 2015 - even though the technology and route hadn't been finalized - the design was done even earlier.

The core of the rest of the line is the 12-station all-day two-way Deux-Montagnes commuter line that opened and was electrified over 100 years ago! What's new are three additional stations between Central and Bois Franc (though the most expensive, the deep one on Vincent d'Indy, was originally planned to be opened in the 1980s when the adjoining Metro station opened). Note though, that the conversion of this piece of line to a frequent metro-like service was not first announced 9 years ago, but about 60 years ago, as a steel-wheeled Line 3 of the metro.

The 4-station spur to Morgan and the 3-station spur to Trudeau International are new - other than reusing some old freight track for part of it. The whole thing is probably best compared to something like London Overground than subway.

Part of this is the infrequent off-peak service for the 12 stations on branches (compared to the 14 stations on the central and south shore pieces). It's a bit of a mix really - one could easily argue that the 14-station section from Bois Franc to the south shore with 5-minute off-peak service (better than the metro!) is a metro line. From there, the 3 northern branches only provide infrequent (15-minute) off-peak service, similar to GO RER.

So if this new 67-km, 26-station network , much of it with only RER-like service is building faster, what about the GO Lakeshore, which now has 15-minute mid-day service from Oakville to Oshawa (86-km), and is expanding to evenings and weekends. Not to mention plans to do similar on parts of 4 other GO lines (Milton, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville)?

Meanwhile, Montreal still waits for Metro extensions announced over 40 years ago, while the GTA currently seven new lines or extensions under way (or about to be underway with the Yonge extension and the Ontario Line), with five more currently being planned and hopefully announced during the next few years (Line 4 east extension to Sheppard/McCowan, Line 5 east extension to Sheppard, Sheppard LRT from Sheppard/McCowan to Line 5, and the Line 5 extension from Renforth to Pearson, Hurontario LRT from Steeles to Brampton). After that they are talking about Line 6 extensions in both directions, and a Jane LRT. Not to mention a myriad of lesser projects ($1 billion range), like the new platform at Yonge/Bloor, the much bigger streetcar station at Union, the new Waterfront West and Waterfront East LRT services, the additional platforms for both lines at St. George station, and with extensive works at many stations to add more platform width, mezzanines, and exits.

And then there's the dozens of other projects (BRT, some LRT, GO extensions and new ilnes) outlined in the Regional Transportation Plan.

Sure, Montreal is building faster now than it used to. So is Toronto. Look at the speed of Line 6, when you take away the extensive deep tunnelled sections, and simply go with some cut-and-cover terminals. Construction will be significantly less than the REM when it opens.

And look at Crosstown itself. We've all seen how little time it took to complete the at-surface section in Scarborough - almost 1/3 of the entire route!

 

[DirectionNorth]

As impressive as the new light rail in Montreal is, in terms of project time, we shouldn't overplay this. It might only be 9 years from the announcement of the current iteration, but the planning for the 5 stations south of Central started about 20 years ago. Construction on the most significant, most expensive piece of new alignment (from Nun's Island to Brossard) started in 2015 - even though the technology and route hadn't been finalized - the design was done even earlier.

The core of the rest of the line is the 12-station all-day two-way Deux-Montagnes commuter line that opened and was electrified over 100 years ago! What's new are three additional stations between Central and Bois Franc (though the most expensive, the deep one on Vincent d'Indy, was originally planned to be opened in the 1980s when the adjoining Metro station opened). Note though, that the conversion of this piece of line to a frequent metro-like service was not first announced 9 years ago, but about 60 years ago, as a steel-wheeled Line 3 of the metro.

The 4-station spur to Morgan and the 3-station spur to Trudeau International are new - other than reusing some old freight track for part of it. The whole thing is probably best compared to something like London Overground than subway.

Part of this is the infrequent off-peak service for the 12 stations on branches (compared to the 14 stations on the central and south shore pieces). It's a bit of a mix really - one could easily argue that the 14-station section from Bois Franc to the south shore with 5-minute off-peak service (better than the metro!) is a metro line. From there, the 3 northern branches only provide infrequent (15-minute) off-peak service, similar to GO RER.

So if this new 67-km, 26-station network , much of it with only RER-like service is building faster, what about the GO Lakeshore, which now has 15-minute mid-day service from Oakville to Oshawa (86-km), and is expanding to evenings and weekends. Not to mention plans to do similar on parts of 4 other GO lines (Milton, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville)?

Meanwhile, Montreal still waits for Metro extensions announced over 40 years ago, while the GTA currently seven new lines or extensions under way (or about to be underway with the Yonge extension and the Ontario Line), with five more currently being planned and hopefully announced during the next few years (Line 4 east extension to Sheppard/McCowan, Line 5 east extension to Sheppard, Sheppard LRT from Sheppard/McCowan to Line 5, and the Line 5 extension from Renforth to Pearson, Hurontario LRT from Steeles to Brampton). After that they are talking about Line 6 extensions in both directions, and a Jane LRT. Not to mention a myriad of lesser projects ($1 billion range), like the new platform at Yonge/Bloor, the much bigger streetcar station at Union, the new Waterfront West and Waterfront East LRT services, the additional platforms for both lines at St. George station, and with extensive works at many stations to add more platform width, mezzanines, and exits.

And then there's the dozens of other projects (BRT, some LRT, GO extensions and new ilnes) outlined in the Regional Transportation Plan.

Sure, Montreal is building faster now than it used to. So is Toronto. Look at the speed of Line 6, when you take away the extensive deep tunnelled sections, and simply go with some cut-and-cover terminals. Construction will be significantly less than the REM when it opens.

And look at Crosstown itself. We've all seen how little time it took to complete the at-surface section in Scarborough - almost 1/3 of the entire route!

Montreal's above ground segments are certainly easier and cheaper to build. I still think we should emulate Montreal and encourage the use of low-cost solutions.

 

[NoahB]

As impressive as the new light rail in Montreal is, in terms of project time, we shouldn't overplay this. It might only be 9 years from the announcement of the current iteration, but the planning for the 5 stations south of Central started about 20 years ago. Construction on the most significant, most expensive piece of new alignment (from Nun's Island to Brossard) started in 2015 - even though the technology and route hadn't been finalized - the design was done even earlier.

The core of the rest of the line is the 12-station all-day two-way Deux-Montagnes commuter line that opened and was electrified over 100 years ago! What's new are three additional stations between Central and Bois Franc (though the most expensive, the deep one on Vincent d'Indy, was originally planned to be opened in the 1980s when the adjoining Metro station opened). Note though, that the conversion of this piece of line to a frequent metro-like service was not first announced 9 years ago, but about 60 years ago, as a steel-wheeled Line 3 of the metro.

The 4-station spur to Morgan and the 3-station spur to Trudeau International are new - other than reusing some old freight track for part of it. The whole thing is probably best compared to something like London Overground than subway.

Part of this is the infrequent off-peak service for the 12 stations on branches (compared to the 14 stations on the central and south shore pieces). It's a bit of a mix really - one could easily argue that the 14-station section from Bois Franc to the south shore with 5-minute off-peak service (better than the metro!) is a metro line. From there, the 3 northern branches only provide infrequent (15-minute) off-peak service, similar to GO RER.

So if this new 67-km, 26-station network , much of it with only RER-like service is building faster, what about the GO Lakeshore, which now has 15-minute mid-day service from Oakville to Oshawa (86-km), and is expanding to evenings and weekends. Not to mention plans to do similar on parts of 4 other GO lines (Milton, Kitchener, Barrie, Stouffville)?

Meanwhile, Montreal still waits for Metro extensions announced over 40 years ago, while the GTA currently seven new lines or extensions under way (or about to be underway with the Yonge extension and the Ontario Line), with five more currently being planned and hopefully announced during the next few years (Line 4 east extension to Sheppard/McCowan, Line 5 east extension to Sheppard, Sheppard LRT from Sheppard/McCowan to Line 5, and the Line 5 extension from Renforth to Pearson, Hurontario LRT from Steeles to Brampton). After that they are talking about Line 6 extensions in both directions, and a Jane LRT. Not to mention a myriad of lesser projects ($1 billion range), like the new platform at Yonge/Bloor, the much bigger streetcar station at Union, the new Waterfront West and Waterfront East LRT services, the additional platforms for both lines at St. George station, and with extensive works at many stations to add more platform width, mezzanines, and exits.

And then there's the dozens of other projects (BRT, some LRT, GO extensions and new ilnes) outlined in the Regional Transportation Plan.

Sure, Montreal is building faster now than it used to. So is Toronto. Look at the speed of Line 6, when you take away the extensive deep tunnelled sections, and simply go with some cut-and-cover terminals. Construction will be significantly less than the REM when it opens.

And look at Crosstown itself. We've all seen how little time it took to complete the at-surface section in Scarborough - almost 1/3 of the entire route!

Toronto/Ontario has studied line after line and canceled them all one after another. (Queens Streetcar Subway, GO ALRT, Hamilton RT, etc)

The Regional Transportation Plan is sensitive to political interference and is less than a napkin drawing. (Hello Shepperd Subway/LRT/Ontario Line Loop)

The Montreal Metro Blue Line extension only proves my point: they didn't cut the red tape for it as they did for the REM and now it is delayed because they cant expropriate the land.

The GO Expansion/RER is being built ad hoc and piecemeal and will take decades to complete. And contracts haven't been signed yet to complete it. Unlike the REM which is a turnkey all-in-one project that has a set defined deadline.

The Crosstown LRT is just a tram. It is outrageous how much it cost to build it. They didn't even elevate the eastern section. CDPQ Infra looked at the possibility of having at grade sections for the REM East and sensibly found that service efficiency would be sacrificed. (back to my point of local meddling where the city prefers a cute little tram instead. And also relates to my point of them sensibly throwing away old plans that are designed to be palatable to the public instead of being useful.)

After that they are talking about Line 6 extensions in both directions, and a Jane LRT.

Literally, nobody outside of these forums are talking about either of these...

like the new platform at Yonge/Bloor, the much bigger streetcar station at Union, the new Waterfront West and Waterfront East LRT services, the additional platforms for both lines at St. George station, and with extensive works at many stations to add more platform width, mezzanines, and exits.

Only the Yonge-Bloor project is funded. Waterfront West LRT is on the drawing board with no set timeline and no contracts. Waterfront East LRT has a target date and no funding. St.George expansion is not on any of the books or plans. And the exit and mezzanine plans are to add disability and fire code compliance because there is a deadline by law.