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crs1026 said:
Let's remember what the real problem is here.

Even with priority signalling, I would not expect LRT to blaze through major intersections at "track speed".

Slowing to, say, 40 km/h only adds seconds to the trip time. Whereas, stopping for a red signal and waiting through a full light cycle can cost a minute or two.

The underlying travesty is that the system does not give priority to transit vehicles whenever possible. If they have to slow a little, so be it.

- Paul
Click to expand...
Why shouldn't they travel through the intersections at track speed? Trams do that in many cities. Why not in Toronto?
 
felix123 said:
Why shouldn't they travel through the intersections at track speed? Trams do that in many cities. Why not in Toronto?
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I'm not sure which cities you're referring to, but it does slow down in many cities, even european ones. I watched the cab ride for the Belgium Coast tram a few months ago, and it absolutely slowed down when it got to areas with many intersections. The thing is in most cities, trams that run in urban areas with lots of intersections don't run that quickly to begin with. The Belgian Coast tram runs at like 70-80km/h outside the cities where its basically in a dedicated railway ROW in the middle of nowhere, meanwhile the moment it enters a somewhat urban section with crossings and intersections, it slows down to 30-40km/h at all times.
 
T3G said:
A not very exhaustive list:

Prague:


Bratislava:


Brno:


Hannover:


I looked up the Belgian Coastal Tram and it didn't slow down at random crossings either.


https://youtu.be/aVtETZ2zOUg?t=5374

https://youtu.be/aVtETZ2zOUg?t=5389
Click to expand...
Again I want you to be careful, because I brought up the fact that the tram could also be naturally travelling slowly. In that clip of the Belgian Coastal Tram you sent for instance, its literally travelling at 40km/h on that beachfront section. It might not look that slow in the footage, but that's because it was filmed using a wide lens that distorts the perspective to make the tram look like its running faster than it actually is. Feel free to open GMaps, measure the distance between the pantograph poles, and time how long it takes the tram to travel between them (Its around 55m between the poles, and a little under 5s between each pole)
1691773630873.png
 
ARG1 said:
Again I want you to be careful, because I brought up the fact that the tram could also be naturally travelling slowly. In that clip of the Belgian Coastal Tram you sent for instance, its literally travelling at 40km/h on that beachfront section.
Click to expand...
That's shifting the goal posts. The discussion was not of the maximum speed that the vehicle achieves, but whether the vehicle is required to slow down for intersections, as they will be on the Crosstown, or not. If a Crosstown tram is doing 40 km/h between sections, it will still be required to slow down to 25 at intersections, which the Belgian tram manifestly did not.

None of the trams in the videos I linked are great speedsters compared to the high speed sections of the Belgian Coast Tram, but each of them were permitted to enter an intersection at their present speed, or even speeding up. Why, therefore, not Toronto?
 
T3G said:
That's shifting the goal posts. The discussion was not of the maximum speed that the vehicle achieves, but whether the vehicle is required to slow down for intersections, as they will be on the Crosstown, or not. If a Crosstown tram is doing 40 km/h between sections, it will still be required to slow down to 25 at intersections, which the Belgian tram manifestly did not.
Click to expand...
I thought the discussion was around running 50-60km/h between intersections, and it being 40km/h at intersections, my bad, which is why I brought up the trams being slow to begin with. That being said, I looked at a section of the Belgian tram when its actually running in an urban area where intersections can be found (specifically Blankenberge, 21m into the video), and its ~28km/h. Again its difficult to slow down at intersections when you're not travelling that quickly to begin with.
 
Again, no one is saying it’s impossible - but the transition to a higher speed line given Toronto driver culture needs to be reasoned and safe. There are obvious safety issues that one has to recognize. Maybe some day.
And again, it’s the speed impacts of red lights (period) that gives the TTC culture its grounds to aspire to plodding mediocrity. Impose the green lights - with caution - and there is much more room for improvement. Let’s walk before we run.

- Paul
 
Like I mentioned in a previous post, international best practice typically has trams travelling through intersections at around 40 km/h. This is not "track speed" either, however going from 50/60 to 40 is very different than going to 25 km/h. Which, in my professional opinion is very much a result of the litigious society we live in. Unfortunately, that sort of thinking is probably not going to change in our (my) lifetime. But, hopefully, with a push to design safer intersections, they can also be more efficient for all road users.
 
I ride Viva Blue sometimes and given the similar ROW design I think I can add some thoughts.

Here is a typical intersection on a Viva BRT corridor. Sometimes the extra median between the two bus lanes is not present, but otherwise this is the standard design. A typical ECLRT intersection is more or less the same layout.
1691783147501.png


Despite not even riding Viva Blue that often, I have seen several close calls between buses and left turning vehicles where someone tries to turn left in front of the bus when the left turn signal is red, and the bus driver has to honk the horn and brake/swerve to avoid a collision. Many bus drivers actually slow down before intersections even for green lights even though I don't think they are required to (not all drivers seem to do this). I imagine this is due to a combination of the following:
1. Bus lanes being too narrow (especially with all the medians that the buses need to weave between).
2. Insufficient buffer between the bus lane and the left turn lane (typically <1m), which makes it feel unsafe to pass through at high speed (even if it isn't really that unsafe).
3. The bus driver is concerned that left turning drivers might try to turn left directly in front of the bus, and they are preparing to need to stop.
The first one of these is probably not an issue for LRTs but I can see the latter two being problematic.

With rail vehicles' worse braking performance and inability to swerve around cars (also do they even have regular horns?), I honestly agree that it is unsafe for LRT trains to pass through an this intersection at 40+km/h. And this is not because I think this is impossible to do safely, but because I think there are severe deficiencies with the way we design median transit lanes.

Two major issues:
1. As mentioned before, insufficient buffer between transit lanes and left turn lanes. Not only is it a bit uncomfortable for transit vehicles to have to pass left turning cars so closely, but if a left turning driver decided to turn on a red signal, there is almost zero time between when the car starts moving and when the car has intruded into the path of the bus/train, meaning there is almost no time for the bus/LRT driver to react.

And 2. Ridiculous and confusing clutter of traffic signals and signs at these intersections, with the transit signal, through signal, and left turn signals all appearing the same. All of these signals look the same when they are yellow or red and it is not immediately clear which signal applies to you as a left turning driver. Part of this also has to do with driver education, but it's frankly not surprising that there are so many people who try to turn left on red left turn signals given the confusing clutter. We urgently need to change the Highway Traffic Act to allow *red and yellow arrows* for turn signals and vertical/horizontal bars for transit signals. Near side signals would also help a lot by placing each signal directly over the lane to which it applies, making it completely obvious as to which signal applies to you.
 
sche said:
I ride Viva Blue sometimes and given the similar ROW design I think I can add some thoughts.

Here is a typical intersection on a Viva BRT corridor. Sometimes the extra median between the two bus lanes is not present, but otherwise this is the standard design. A typical ECLRT intersection is more or less the same layout.
View attachment 499388

Despite not even riding Viva Blue that often, I have seen several close calls between buses and left turning vehicles where someone tries to turn left in front of the bus when the left turn signal is red, and the bus driver has to honk the horn and brake/swerve to avoid a collision. Many bus drivers actually slow down before intersections even for green lights even though I don't think they are required to (not all drivers seem to do this). I imagine this is due to a combination of the following:
1. Bus lanes being too narrow (especially with all the medians that the buses need to weave between).
2. Insufficient buffer between the bus lane and the left turn lane (typically <1m), which makes it feel unsafe to pass through at high speed (even if it isn't really that unsafe).
3. The bus driver is concerned that left turning drivers might try to turn left directly in front of the bus, and they are preparing to need to stop.
The first one of these is probably not an issue for LRTs but I can see the latter two being problematic.

With rail vehicles' worse braking performance and inability to swerve around cars (also do they even have regular horns?), I honestly agree that it is unsafe for LRT trains to pass through an this intersection at 40+km/h. And this is not because I think this is impossible to do safely, but because I think there are severe deficiencies with the way we design median transit lanes.

Two major issues:
1. As mentioned before, insufficient buffer between transit lanes and left turn lanes. Not only is it a bit uncomfortable for transit vehicles to have to pass left turning cars so closely, but if a left turning driver decided to turn on a red signal, there is almost zero time between when the car starts moving and when the car has intruded into the path of the bus/train, meaning there is almost no time for the bus/LRT driver to react.

And 2. Ridiculous and confusing clutter of traffic signals and signs at these intersections, with the transit signal, through signal, and left turn signals all appearing the same. All of these signals look the same when they are yellow or red and it is not immediately clear which signal applies to you as a left turning driver. Part of this also has to do with driver education, but it's frankly not surprising that there are so many people who try to turn left on red left turn signals given the confusing clutter. We urgently need to change the Highway Traffic Act to allow *red and yellow arrows* for turn signals and vertical/horizontal bars for transit signals. Near side signals would also help a lot by placing each signal directly over the lane to which it applies, making it completely obvious as to which signal applies to you.
Click to expand...
Definitely the signal changes that you suggested would be helpful. Dedicated signals that reduce signage clutter are much more clear. And near-side signals for their safety benefits too.

I am concerned about the people making left-turns on a red light though, that's just unacceptable and I don't think we should make more concessions for red light runners. The other factors you suggested could definitely prevent this from happening.

For example, on Adelaide Street where the City has activated new protected left turn signals. I fully saw people just driving through a red light. I know the typical argument is that they're "not used to it" but, it's a red light, it's in the HTA, it's in the driver's handbook. Why is it that driver's get a pass for doing something illegal.
 
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