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reinventingthewheel said:
Need to understand this is simply a play to get funds from the province. No sense really considering this possibility.
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Absolutely - the province won't allow those projects to be delayed, which may help them make a case for the next election. The city should feel confident that this will force the province into making a better deal.
 
smallspy said:
In case you weren't aware, transit generally doesn't make a profit.

And rapid transit has humongous overhead costs that accrue regardless of the amount of service being run or the number of passengers being carried.

So in these cases, while the continued running of buses would be to the detriment of passengers, it would likely cause the TTC to spend less money than it would running the respective LRTs.

Dan
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One of the LRT tech selling points was that it will be cheaper to operate than the buses, on routes with high ridership. The number of LRT drivers needed is several times smaller than the number of bus drivers needed.

If that's not actually the case, then it will be hard to justify any new LRT line in the future, except Waterfront East.
 
reinventingthewheel said:
Need to understand this is simply a play to get funds from the province. No sense really considering this possibility.
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I see this as a way of nicely packaging for the Province a way to support the City's operating hole without it seemingly like the government is just giving Toronto a cheque. The City has a hole of X hundred million...either give us money to fill part of that entire hole, or take responsibility for the operating subsidy for a project you already own and have control over.
 
cplchanb said:
I'll tell you that I am one of the many who is hinging on the cross town to make that switch from the car. The only reason why I'm not taking transit is that the 34 bus takes 45 minutes to do 5 km. Traffic jams have been mathematically proven to detriment the economy as well, Well it may not detriment the budget of ttc Everything around it will be affected
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Take a number. You're not the only one (here) who has been anxiously waiting and having to deal with the seemingly endless construction.

Rainforest said:
One of the LRT tech selling points was that it will be cheaper to operate than the buses, on routes with high ridership. The number of LRT drivers needed is several times smaller than the number of bus drivers needed.

If that's not actually the case, then it will be hard to justify any new LRT line in the future, except Waterfront East.
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It's complicated.

On a strictly operating number basis, that is true - the direct cost to operate the vehicles (operators, energy) is considerably lower for LRTs than it is for buses.

But if you factor in the cost of the fixed plant, and especially when the line (or sections of it) are grade separated, the numbers are not nearly so cut-and-dried. Especially when you consider that the TTC has to pay to maintain all of that infrastructure, whereas they don't pay for the roads.

Dan
 
From link.

Carrying Capacity (planned number of customers per vehicle)​

TTC SRT Car: 30 seated; 55 maximum (220 for a 4-car train)
TTC SRT car

TTC Bus: 36 seated; 51 maximum
TTC Bus


TTC LFLRV: 70 seated; 130 maximum
Low-Floor Light Rail vehicle

TTC T1 Subway Car: 66 seated; 167 maximum (1,000 for a 6-car train)
TTC T1 Subway car

TTC Toronto Rocket Car: 64-68 seated; 180 maximum (1,080 for a 6-car train)
TTC Toronto Rocket car


The capacity of a Flexity Freedom car on the Crosstown LRT should be similar to the LFLRV above TIMES the number of cars in a train. Could be 2 car or 3 car trains, which is between 260 to 360 maximum, which is more than the SRT train.
 
smallspy said:
It's complicated.

On a strictly operating number basis, that is true - the direct cost to operate the vehicles (operators, energy) is considerably lower for LRTs than it is for buses.

But if you factor in the cost of the fixed plant, and especially when the line (or sections of it) are grade separated, the numbers are not nearly so cut-and-dried. Especially when you consider that the TTC has to pay to maintain all of that infrastructure, whereas they don't pay for the roads.

Dan
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I see the point. However, it does have an impact on the desirability of the future LRT lines.

Eglinton is an odd duck, with so much of it running underground / elevated. The operational expenses will be much higher than for any surface line (and the benefits higher as well, but one can debate whether the benefits justify the costs). In any case, Eglinton is not to be compared to any other line.

But Finch? A very typical line, running almost entirely in the street median. The press release mentioned Finch for a possible delay, too.

If the operation of Finch LRT might have to be delayed due to the cost concerns, that definitely affects future LRT plans, and not in a good way.
 
Rainforest said:
I see the point. However, it does have an impact on the desirability of the future LRT lines.

Eglinton is an odd duck, with so much of it running underground / elevated. The operational expenses will be much higher than for any surface line (and the benefits higher as well, but one can debate whether the benefits justify the costs). In any case, Eglinton is not to be compared to any other line.

But Finch? A very typical line, running almost entirely in the street median. The press release mentioned Finch for a possible delay, too.

If the operation of Finch LRT might have to be delayed due to the cost concerns, that definitely affects future LRT plans, and not in a good way.
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Right now, TTC is screw for operation cost regardless of mode as well construction projects along with buying new equipment..

Waterfront East LRT is up for funding in either Oct or Nov at Executive Level and then to council the following month. I am expecting it will be shelve for a few more years like it has since 2014 with a timeline close to 2040 than the 2031-35 current time frame for operation.

You got the Hillcrest yard expansion to house the new 60 cars for 512, 511 and 510 that will be here by 2025 when the final car arrives. 4604 will enter service in the next few day with 4605 arriving in Sept

Ford not going to fund streetcars cost since he hates them in the first place.
 
Yahe said:
I am not sure if this has been mentioned before but operator training for line 5 is expected to be ongoing by late 2023 and training for line 6 would be on around early 2024. Line 5 and 6 operators will both be expected to work for both lines.
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I guess since the TTC is operating the lines, it makes sense to share them between Eglinton and Finch for a larger, interchangeable pool.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
I guess since the TTC is operating the lines, it makes sense to share them between Eglinton and Finch for a larger, interchangeable pool.
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Also reassuring that they are neither treating the LRT lines as merely a variant of streetcar operations, nor entirely unrelated to each other with no possibility of intermingling anything.
 
Rainforest said:
One of the LRT tech selling points was that it will be cheaper to operate than the buses, on routes with high ridership. The number of LRT drivers needed is several times smaller than the number of bus drivers needed.

If that's not actually the case, then it will be hard to justify any new LRT line in the future, except Waterfront East.
Click to expand...
Something Steve Munro has brought up a while back is that "extra bus service" because of construction of the Crosstown is funded straight out of the construction capital budget for which the City can borrow money, and this means that bizarre scenarios can arise where the TTC "saves" money by late project delivery, and they can also juice that "extra" amount of service in the operating books because why not say that almost all service is "extra" and then shunt almost all operating expense of whole routes to a line item in the construction capital budget.

So there are possible accounting-based "savings" on the operations side every day of delay for Crosstown. It's not any real saving at all, but on the management books it looks good, which we know is what the current TTC loves because it means more future capital interest expense for the City, and why would TTC executives of today care about future 30-year bond issues?
 
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Jonny5 said:
Something Steve Munro has brought up a while back is that "extra bus service" because of construction of the Crosstown is funded straight out of the construction capital budget for which the City can borrow money, and this means that bizarre scenarios can arise where the TTC "saves" money by late project delivery, and they can also juice that "extra" amount of service in the operating books because why not say that almost all service is "extra" and then shunt almost all operating expense of whole routes to a line item in the construction capital budget.

So there are possible accounting-based "savings" on the operations side every day of delay for Crosstown. It's not any real saving at all, but on the management books it looks good, which we know is what the current TTC loves because it means more future capital interest expense for the City, and why would TTC executives of today care about future 30-year bond issues?
Click to expand...

That would be the most horrible scenario, if the LRTs (or at least the Finch LRT) can actually save some operating costs, but the accounting pecularities make it more desirable for the city to continue running buses.

Unfortunately, such situations do happen.
 
drum118 said:
Right now, TTC is screw for operation cost regardless of mode as well construction projects along with buying new equipment..

Waterfront East LRT is up for funding in either Oct or Nov at Executive Level and then to council the following month. I am expecting it will be shelve for a few more years like it has since 2014 with a timeline close to 2040 than the 2031-35 current time frame for operation.

You got the Hillcrest yard expansion to house the new 60 cars for 512, 511 and 510 that will be here by 2025 when the final car arrives. 4604 will enter service in the next few day with 4605 arriving in Sept

Ford not going to fund streetcars cost since he hates them in the first place.
Click to expand...
Doug ford might hate streetcars, but I'm sure his developer buddies need them to sell condos in the downtown core. And we all know donations to the party means more than a personal hatred for streetcars. So he will have to fund them , even if he hates them.

He could have easily cancelled the order when his brother was Mayor , but didn't.

No one is a threat to the streetcar network for the next 20 years. Maybe with the exception of TTC and their operating procedures.
 
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