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That's shifting the goal posts. The discussion was not of the maximum speed that the vehicle achieves, but whether the vehicle is required to slow down for intersections, as they will be on the Crosstown, or not. If a Crosstown tram is doing 40 km/h between sections, it will still be required to slow down to 25 at intersections, which the Belgian tram manifestly did not.
I thought the discussion was around running 50-60km/h between intersections, and it being 40km/h at intersections, my bad, which is why I brought up the trams being slow to begin with. That being said, I looked at a section of the Belgian tram when its actually running in an urban area where intersections can be found (specifically Blankenberge, 21m into the video), and its ~28km/h. Again its difficult to slow down at intersections when you're not travelling that quickly to begin with.
 
Again, no one is saying it’s impossible - but the transition to a higher speed line given Toronto driver culture needs to be reasoned and safe. There are obvious safety issues that one has to recognize. Maybe some day.
And again, it’s the speed impacts of red lights (period) that gives the TTC culture its grounds to aspire to plodding mediocrity. Impose the green lights - with caution - and there is much more room for improvement. Let’s walk before we run.

- Paul
 
Like I mentioned in a previous post, international best practice typically has trams travelling through intersections at around 40 km/h. This is not "track speed" either, however going from 50/60 to 40 is very different than going to 25 km/h. Which, in my professional opinion is very much a result of the litigious society we live in. Unfortunately, that sort of thinking is probably not going to change in our (my) lifetime. But, hopefully, with a push to design safer intersections, they can also be more efficient for all road users.
 
I ride Viva Blue sometimes and given the similar ROW design I think I can add some thoughts.

Here is a typical intersection on a Viva BRT corridor. Sometimes the extra median between the two bus lanes is not present, but otherwise this is the standard design. A typical ECLRT intersection is more or less the same layout.
1691783147501.png


Despite not even riding Viva Blue that often, I have seen several close calls between buses and left turning vehicles where someone tries to turn left in front of the bus when the left turn signal is red, and the bus driver has to honk the horn and brake/swerve to avoid a collision. Many bus drivers actually slow down before intersections even for green lights even though I don't think they are required to (not all drivers seem to do this). I imagine this is due to a combination of the following:
1. Bus lanes being too narrow (especially with all the medians that the buses need to weave between).
2. Insufficient buffer between the bus lane and the left turn lane (typically <1m), which makes it feel unsafe to pass through at high speed (even if it isn't really that unsafe).
3. The bus driver is concerned that left turning drivers might try to turn left directly in front of the bus, and they are preparing to need to stop.
The first one of these is probably not an issue for LRTs but I can see the latter two being problematic.

With rail vehicles' worse braking performance and inability to swerve around cars (also do they even have regular horns?), I honestly agree that it is unsafe for LRT trains to pass through an this intersection at 40+km/h. And this is not because I think this is impossible to do safely, but because I think there are severe deficiencies with the way we design median transit lanes.

Two major issues:
1. As mentioned before, insufficient buffer between transit lanes and left turn lanes. Not only is it a bit uncomfortable for transit vehicles to have to pass left turning cars so closely, but if a left turning driver decided to turn on a red signal, there is almost zero time between when the car starts moving and when the car has intruded into the path of the bus/train, meaning there is almost no time for the bus/LRT driver to react.

And 2. Ridiculous and confusing clutter of traffic signals and signs at these intersections, with the transit signal, through signal, and left turn signals all appearing the same. All of these signals look the same when they are yellow or red and it is not immediately clear which signal applies to you as a left turning driver. Part of this also has to do with driver education, but it's frankly not surprising that there are so many people who try to turn left on red left turn signals given the confusing clutter. We urgently need to change the Highway Traffic Act to allow *red and yellow arrows* for turn signals and vertical/horizontal bars for transit signals. Near side signals would also help a lot by placing each signal directly over the lane to which it applies, making it completely obvious as to which signal applies to you.
 
I ride Viva Blue sometimes and given the similar ROW design I think I can add some thoughts.

Here is a typical intersection on a Viva BRT corridor. Sometimes the extra median between the two bus lanes is not present, but otherwise this is the standard design. A typical ECLRT intersection is more or less the same layout.
View attachment 499388

Despite not even riding Viva Blue that often, I have seen several close calls between buses and left turning vehicles where someone tries to turn left in front of the bus when the left turn signal is red, and the bus driver has to honk the horn and brake/swerve to avoid a collision. Many bus drivers actually slow down before intersections even for green lights even though I don't think they are required to (not all drivers seem to do this). I imagine this is due to a combination of the following:
1. Bus lanes being too narrow (especially with all the medians that the buses need to weave between).
2. Insufficient buffer between the bus lane and the left turn lane (typically <1m), which makes it feel unsafe to pass through at high speed (even if it isn't really that unsafe).
3. The bus driver is concerned that left turning drivers might try to turn left directly in front of the bus, and they are preparing to need to stop.
The first one of these is probably not an issue for LRTs but I can see the latter two being problematic.

With rail vehicles' worse braking performance and inability to swerve around cars (also do they even have regular horns?), I honestly agree that it is unsafe for LRT trains to pass through an this intersection at 40+km/h. And this is not because I think this is impossible to do safely, but because I think there are severe deficiencies with the way we design median transit lanes.

Two major issues:
1. As mentioned before, insufficient buffer between transit lanes and left turn lanes. Not only is it a bit uncomfortable for transit vehicles to have to pass left turning cars so closely, but if a left turning driver decided to turn on a red signal, there is almost zero time between when the car starts moving and when the car has intruded into the path of the bus/train, meaning there is almost no time for the bus/LRT driver to react.

And 2. Ridiculous and confusing clutter of traffic signals and signs at these intersections, with the transit signal, through signal, and left turn signals all appearing the same. All of these signals look the same when they are yellow or red and it is not immediately clear which signal applies to you as a left turning driver. Part of this also has to do with driver education, but it's frankly not surprising that there are so many people who try to turn left on red left turn signals given the confusing clutter. We urgently need to change the Highway Traffic Act to allow *red and yellow arrows* for turn signals and vertical/horizontal bars for transit signals. Near side signals would also help a lot by placing each signal directly over the lane to which it applies, making it completely obvious as to which signal applies to you.
Definitely the signal changes that you suggested would be helpful. Dedicated signals that reduce signage clutter are much more clear. And near-side signals for their safety benefits too.

I am concerned about the people making left-turns on a red light though, that's just unacceptable and I don't think we should make more concessions for red light runners. The other factors you suggested could definitely prevent this from happening.

For example, on Adelaide Street where the City has activated new protected left turn signals. I fully saw people just driving through a red light. I know the typical argument is that they're "not used to it" but, it's a red light, it's in the HTA, it's in the driver's handbook. Why is it that driver's get a pass for doing something illegal.
 
Definitely the signal changes that you suggested would be helpful. Dedicated signals that reduce signage clutter are much more clear. And near-side signals for their safety benefits too.

I am concerned about the people making left-turns on a red light though, that's just unacceptable and I don't think we should make more concessions for red light runners. The other factors you suggested could definitely prevent this from happening.

For example, on Adelaide Street where the City has activated new protected left turn signals. I fully saw people just driving through a red light. I know the typical argument is that they're "not used to it" but, it's a red light, it's in the HTA, it's in the driver's handbook. Why is it that driver's get a pass for doing something illegal.
Is there something in the regulations that allows dedicated left turn signals in peak hours and "free for all on thru green" outside of peak? Or is that simply a technology limitation where it cannot be done unless the dedicated lights and sign can rotate out of sight or disappear?
 
Is there something in the regulations that allows dedicated left turn signals in peak hours and "free for all on thru green" outside of peak? Or is that simply a technology limitation where it cannot be done unless the dedicated lights and sign can rotate out of sight or disappear?
I'm curious why you would want this? Protected left-turn phases are much better for pedestrian and cycling safety.
 
Definitely the signal changes that you suggested would be helpful. Dedicated signals that reduce signage clutter are much more clear. And near-side signals for their safety benefits too.

I am concerned about the people making left-turns on a red light though, that's just unacceptable and I don't think we should make more concessions for red light runners. The other factors you suggested could definitely prevent this from happening.

For example, on Adelaide Street where the City has activated new protected left turn signals. I fully saw people just driving through a red light. I know the typical argument is that they're "not used to it" but, it's a red light, it's in the HTA, it's in the driver's handbook. Why is it that driver's get a pass for doing something illegal.
You need to address the cause not the symptom which is incompetent and blind drivers. make red light turn accidents a serious ticket offence and up the fine/punishment for those who get caught by police.
 
You need to address the cause not the symptom which is incompetent and blind drivers. make red light turn accidents a serious ticket offence and up the fine/punishment for those who get caught by police.

Driving through a red light is clearly unacceptable, but I have some sympathy for the human nature elements that cause drivers to push the envelope making left turns at the end of a light cycle.

Left turns are often a "when the stars align" situation, and having things almost line up only to have the light cycle time out (or one last pedestrian dash into the intersection, or a car come out of nowhere in the opposing direction) is inherently frustrating for most people. IF the driver has entered the intersection and then stopped, they have an obligation to complete their turn.

The only acceptable driver behaviour is to stay chill, maybe wait out one more light cycle and not make sudden or desperate moves.

However.... whenever the light pattern can reduce this by separating the "turning driver has priority" from the "others have priority", the less room there is for driver error.

- Paul
 
I'm curious why you would want this? Protected left-turn phases are much better for pedestrian and cycling safety.
I personally don't want it as it could reduce safety, but I can understand drivers who are annoyed by left turn only on green arrow signals not being able to turn when road and sidewalk are empty or on yellow light.
 

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