[Rainforest]

TTC bus drivers (IME) tend to be more considerate with the braking and acceleration. I've been (in very minor ways) hurt riding MiWay buses. Not sure what's up with that agency, but they put some real heavy-footed drivers behind the wheel. That includes on the TransitWay. If you like getting thrown around, MiWay's the way; bonus injuries if it's a flexi-bus.

I don't have any consistent experience with MiWay, only rode them a few times in my whole life. It is regretful if they are so careless.

I've been mostly on TTC, and sometimes on YRT. Both of them are not too bad in terms of acceleration. YRT drivers tend to be quite friendly, but their bus frequencies really suck.

 

[evandyk]

There's probably just more opportunity to get up to higher speeds on Mississauga's suburban streets than Toronto's more urban streets.

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Maybe someone with a better calculator than mine can calculate for us. What is the elapsed time between platforms spaced a typical distance apart for a Flexity tram that accelerates to a top speed of 80 km/h versus a top speed of 50-60 km/h ?

My bet is - maybe a few seconds' difference.

- Paul

Train Travel Times Based on Distance, Top Speed, and Approx. Acceleration/Deceleration
Python Output:

Trip distance = d, top speed = v,
elapsed time = t
----------------------------------------
d:  400m, v: 50km/h, t = 39.73s
d:  400m, v: 60km/h, t = 37.12s
d:  400m, v: 80km/h, t = 35.49s
----------------------------------------
d:  600m, v: 50km/h, t = 54.13s
d:  600m, v: 60km/h, t = 49.12s
d:  600m, v: 80km/h, t = 44.49s
----------------------------------------
d:  800m, v: 50km/h, t = 68.53s
d:  800m, v: 60km/h, t = 61.12s
d:  800m, v: 80km/h, t = 53.49s
----------------------------------------
d: 1000m, v: 50km/h, t = 82.93s
d: 1000m, v: 60km/h, t = 73.12s
d: 1000m, v: 80km/h, t = 62.49s

Spoiler: Code

# train travel times based on distance, top speed, approx accel and deceleration:
dists = [400, 600, 800, 1000]    # m
v_kmh = [50, 60, 80]             # km/h
v_ms  = [v / 3.6 for v in v_kmh] # m/s
accel = 1.20                     # m/s^2
decel = 1.35                     # m/s^2

print("Trip distance = d, top speed = v,\nelapsed time = t")

for d in dists:
  print("-" * 40)
  for v_max in v_ms:
    # ramp up and ramp down time (seconds)
    ramp_up_t = v_max / accel
    ramp_dn_t = v_max / decel

    # ramp up and ramp down distance (metres)
    ramp_up_d = v_max * ramp_up_t / 2
    ramp_dn_d = v_max * ramp_dn_t / 2   
    
    # distance at max speed (metres)
    v_max_d = d - ramp_up_d - ramp_dn_d
    
    # time at max speed (seconds)
    v_max_t = v_max_d / v_max
    
    # elapsed time
    t = ramp_up_t + v_max_t + ramp_dn_t
    
    print("d: {:4}m, v: {}km/h, t = {:.2f}s " \
                        .format(d, int(v_max * 3.6), t))

 

[rbt]

So, assuming the same rate of deceleration, and two stops 800 m apart....with no traffic light restrictions.....

80 km/h -
11.1 seconds to accelerate to top speed = 247m
13.8 seconds to travel 307 m at top speed
11.1 seconds to decelerate = 247m
Total - 36.0 seconds

60 km/h
8.4 seconds to accelerate to top speed - 140m
31.2 seconds to travel 520 m at top speed
8.4 seconds to decelerate - 140m
Total - 48.0 seconds

We are debating about 12 seconds per stop? The escalator to the subway level takes longer than that....

The operator probably prefers 80kph max. They can run ~2 to 3 fewer vehicles/drivers and maintain the same overall line capacity.

 

[T3G]

But given that it costs a few billions to install a fully on-surface LRT on any long street - is the smooth ride alone worth the cost, or should a dedicated BRT for 1/3 of the cost be choosen.

That's a trick question. Would the BRT be running with Novas, which might as well have no suspension for the level of comfort that they provide (which is zero) or something that is befitting a first world country?

Good old Orions.

 

[drum118]

BRT vs LRT will always see BRT coming out cheaper than LRT on capital cost, but loose that advantage in operation cost and life cycle. It also loose on the quality of ride.

If BRT is running in mixed traffic or a traffic lane, it doesn't have to cover the cost to maintain the road as well being subject to rough road ride compare to an LRT that does the same thing, but pay full cost for that lane.

Do the math as to how many riders will be on the line per hour and divided that number by an articulated bus carrying capacity to see how many buses you will need. Then multiply that bus number by 3.5 that will represent the number of drivers. You need to see how many buses will be needed for a 30 year life cycle along with the cost to buy them.

As to doing the math for LRT, you need to do the same thing, but decide the length of the LRV to see how many you will need as step 1 to compare apples to apples. Step 2 will see if you can run one LRV or up to 3 as it mean a reduction in the number of drivers which happens to be the most expensive item for operation cost.

In a true comparison of apples to apples using a true ROW for both systems, LRT will be the winner over a 30 year life cycle that includes the construction cost. In a mixed cycle, the LRT still come out ahead, but not much.

Both system have the same issue when come to quality of ride beside smooth or rough rider and that is the driver. Some drivers are easy on the foot for starting and stopping while others are lead foot or on the throttle.

Building a true BRT will be faster than an LRT and how much depends on a number of things like the length and bridges to start with.

Seeing the Crosstown Line built as well the Finch Line, ION Line and Hurontario Line, each one was built different and to say which one is the better is throwing a dart at the wall. The same can be said for the Mississauga Transitway.

Until Crosstown, Finch and Hurontario lines are in service, it is pure guessing how they will run at the end of the day.

 

[Natika33]

My theory would be that an LRT that represents a heated, air conditioned vehicle that rides smoothly, arrives promptly and reliably, and offers some improvement in personal space will be welcomed by those accustomed to the bus, regardless of its speed.

A crowded bus which pitches standees around every time the car ahead slows to make a right turn, lurches over potholes, and stops more frequently pales in comparison...

Your theory holds for me! I really dislike the TTC buses and avoid them as much as possible for every reason you mentioned. Conversely, I'll sometimes voluntarily opt to ride a streetcar over the faster subway when I have time, just so I can appreciate the view. Even though I have no car at present, I'd also choose the streetcar over driving even if it were a bit slower because it's far less stressful and I'm free to do other stuff like keeping up-to-date on Urban Toronto.

 

[crs1026]

To be clear, I have no problem with riding seated on a bus, although I find the rear deck of a low floor transit bus to have questionnable legroom. But standee crush loading on a bus with the added constraint of large strollers or walkers in the front half, is misery, and often quite unstable.. TTC is no exception.
Subway can be just as bad at peak loading, the handholds are often unreachable Nd the geometry of a long reach is not always sufficient. Personally I find Flexities better riding than either.

- Paul

 

[Natika33]

To be clear, I have no problem with riding seated on a bus, although I find the rear deck of a low floor transit bus to have questionnable legroom. But standee crush loading on a bus with the added constraint of large strollers or walkers in the front half, is misery, and often quite unstable.. TTC is no exception.
Subway can be just as bad at peak loading, the handholds are often unreachable Nd the geometry of a long reach is not always sufficient. Personally I find Flexities better riding than either.

- Paul

I have tailbone damage from sitting on a bus when it slammed into a pothole

 

[T3G]

I have tailbone damage from sitting on a bus when it slammed into a pothole

I have tailbone damage from having to stand for 40 minutes on a crush loaded bus and trying my utmost to have as little of my body jutting out as possible!

Riding buses would be significantly more enjoyable from me if they had empty standee spots across from the rear doors like they did on the high floor buses. Standing on a rush hour bus, always in someone's way, I always feel like such an ass.

 

[Natika33]

I have tailbone damage from having to stand for 40 minutes on a crush loaded bus and trying my utmost to have as little of my body jutting out as possible!

Riding buses would be significantly more enjoyable from me if they had empty standee spots across from the rear doors like they did on the high floor buses. Standing on a rush hour bus, always in someone's way, I always feel like such an ass.

Same! No matter where I try to stand, I always feel like I'm in someone's way. Wish they also had racks above the sitters (on subways too) so our bags didn't have to add to the space obstruction.

 

[zang]

There's probably just more opportunity to get up to higher speeds on Mississauga's suburban streets than Toronto's more urban streets.

I get the feeling there’s also the incentive to have a bit more “rest” time at terminal stops. I’ve observed a number of times buses running well ahead of posted schedules. The drivers don’t seem to like slowing things down to keep on track and suddenly they’re 3-4 minutes ahead on a route that only comes every 20-30 minutes. I’ve seen an elderly woman thrown to the ground as the driver realized there were people at a stop he was about to fly by at what felt like 70kms an hour. Hell, I even had one driver completely ignore a woman running towards a bus waving her arms frantically before it left its stop, all so the bus could run a yellow light.

I’m rather glad my mother-in-law recently moved back to Quebec, so I don’t have to deal with MiWay anymore.

 

[canucks2030]

This board is hung up on speed when that is not the goal in the first place. You will find many systems in Europe as well NA that are not fast as Crosstown or Finch, but are getting riders to/from where they want to go in the first place. Getting people to use transit is the goal and making it easier form them to get them where they want to go to is the goal. Transit will never beat the car, but will help them to have a less stressful travel time, the able to read, listen to music, play games on their phone, chill out and do the media thing.

Doing a trip that is faster than today is what riders want. Again, not everyone is going end to end, but places alone the line. When I do Line 2 from end to end, it is an 45 minute trip and even if it was 50 minutes, that no big deal as it will be far faster than using the bus along doing a number of transfers.

It is a different story doing intercity travel where speed is wanted, but you will find a lot of route in Europe are being built for 200km along with what exist. There are a number that are 300 plus and small in number. In some place, 160 will be the best you will see.

Lets wait and see what will take place for Crosstown in real action than speculate what will take place when it finally see service.

This is exactly the problem with many rail projects in Ontario. Speed should be one of the goal and I am stun to hear it’s not the goal to make transit faster and more convenient. I purchase my first car when travel time to get to work was not reasonable and I am sure I am not alone. For the Crosstown will wait and see because could be up to 60% faster as per projection. See if it hold. But Finch being only 20% faster as per Metrolinx (not considering the unavoidable normal delays of every public system) it’s bad and Toronto should ask for better. Toronto deserve more.

 

[drum118]

This is exactly the problem with many rail projects in Ontario. Speed should be one of the goal and I am stun to hear it’s not the goal to make transit faster and more convenient. I purchase my first car when travel time to get to work was not reasonable and I am sure I am not alone. For the Crosstown will wait and see because could be up to 60% faster as per projection. See if it hold. But Finch being only 20% faster as per Metrolinx (not considering the unavoidable normal delays of every public system) it’s bad and Toronto should ask for better. Toronto deserve more.

You need to ride system both in NA and Europe and you will find speed is not a factor for grade level running even in ROW. There are a few where the stations are over a mile apart or more, not the 500-600 spacing that are faster.

Take a trip to KW and ride that system to compare the speed to street ROW, RR Corridor and other ROW to see they are not the same. Even Buffalo and Detroit are 2 other system that are only a few hour away for a day trip with Detroit being an overnight trip depending where you are coming from.

The lack of transit priority is the big issue for transit in Toronto.

 

[canucks2030]

You need to ride system both in NA and Europe and you will find speed is not a factor for grade level running even in ROW. There are a few where the stations are over a mile apart or more, not the 500-600 spacing that are faster.

Take a trip to KW and ride that system to compare the speed to street ROW, RR Corridor and other ROW to see they are not the same. Even Buffalo and Detroit are 2 other system that are only a few hour away for a day trip with Detroit being an overnight trip depending where you are coming from.

The lack of transit priority is the big issue for transit in Toronto.

To be fair my issue mostly with non grade separated transit then the speed of trains. I am from Montreal where we just got the REM. Ontario Line would compare but smaller in scale and wish Toronto were building more like the REM. Not a fan of LRT’s but will go to Toronto to try them once they are finally open and hope to be wrong.