[Midtown Urbanist]

I say Lawrence and Don Mills because of the great things happening at the intersection there, what with the new and excellent Shops at Don Mills and the numerous condos being built in the surrounding area.

It has easily become my favorite area of Toronto outside of downtown and Y+E. Perhaps it is a pipe dream on my part to extend it there but besides connecting the plentiful retail and new condos to the line it does serve as a terminus for the 54 Lawrence bus and leaves heavy precedent for a future extension to Sheppard and beyond.

 

[diminutive]

Can you back this up?

Yes, of course. Here's the relevant info:

Not that I don't trust you but I'm shocked it would be that low considering how many massive apartment complexes are in the area and the significant population of low-income new immigrants that live there who you would think would be most likely to commute by public transit.

Nowhere, nowhere, in Toronto can justify rapid transit without feeder routes. Comparing densities around stations is pretty meaningless since, in most cases, walk in ridership represents a very small fraction of ridership.

Flemingdon is impossible to generate feeder ridership to. The only ways to access it would intersect with Don Mills Station or Thorncliffe Station before.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

There is nothing at Don Mills and Steeles, it's just a random place to end a subway line.

Exactly. But it covers street.

 

[skylyte]

I say Lawrence and Don Mills because of the great things happening at the intersection there, what with the new and excellent Shops at Don Mills and the numerous condos being built in the surrounding area.

It has easily become my favorite area of Toronto outside of downtown and Y+E. Perhaps it is a pipe dream on my part to extend it there but besides connecting the plentiful retail and new condos to the line it does serve as a terminus for the 54 Lawrence bus and leaves heavy precedent for a future extension to Sheppard and beyond.

This also has the potential to be an away-from-downtown "carriage trade" district, like Bel Air or Beverly Hills does for LA. I can foresee a DRL sparking a bigger redevelopment of the Don Mills area from the Celestica all the way up to Fairview Mall, should the line terminate there. It would be a great link to the nearby Bridle Path.

The areas from Donway along Lawrence East to say Victoria Park are brimming with potential. What's needed is that freight rail track to be bought by Metrolink to make a truly transit friendly environment. People living in Scarborough west of the futre GO/current RT and the future McCowan Scarborough Subway would have two lines taking them downtown and to points north.

 

[BurlOak]

Yes, of course. Here's the relevant info:

What if the SRT was connected to an elevated Eglinton line? How many riders would then take Eglinton to the DRL, instead of B-D to Pape? Maybe those two dots could be made the same size or maybe even the Eglinton/Don Mills station would have slightly more transfers.

By not building the Eglinton line grade-separated, some of the justification for the DRL to Eglinton is removed. And having the DRL going only to Pape makes it appear to benefit only the downtown, so it will be difficult to gain support.

The best way to get the DRL is to first build Eglinton Grade separated, then to show an extension to at least Seneca College, maybe even highway 7 to gain more widespread political support. Of course it can't be built all at once, so the first phase would be to Eglinton (maybe with staggered openings to Pape and then to Eglinton).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What if the SRT was connected to an elevated Eglinton line? How many riders would then take Eglinton to the DRL, instead of B-D to Pape? Maybe those two dots could be made the same size or maybe even the Eglinton/Don Mills station would have slightly more transfers.

By not building the Eglinton line grade-separated, some of the justification for the DRL to Eglinton is removed. And having the DRL going only to Pape makes it appear to benefit only the downtown, so it will be difficult to gain support.

The best way to get the DRL is to first build Eglinton Grade separated, then to show an extension to at least Seneca College, maybe even highway 7 to gain more widespread political support. Of course it can't be built all at once, so the first phase would be to Eglinton (maybe with staggered openings to Pape and then to Eglinton).

To be honest I think the Bloor Danforth extension might go up to McCowan/7 too.

 

[DKsan]

That trip, although one seat, would be over an hour, when you could drive that in 35 minutes.

That's assuming, like all the talk of the 905 using the GO lines, that everyone is heading downtown to Union. If you're heading to say...some mid-point, like Yonge and Eglinton, or Yonge and Sheppard or Wellesley, then GO is completely useless (and driving pretty much is too).

 

[BurlOak]

I think that the DRL tunnel along Eglinton from ET Seton Park to Don Mills will be very steep to make it up the ravine from below the riverbed of the Don into the station at Don Mills. Either that, or we have to completely reconfigure the planned Crosstown station box to be, itself, very deep to accommodate the DRL. Of course, this means that the Ferrand stop will have to be axed (not altogether a bad thing) and the Crosstown portal would emerge somewhere near Wynford.

Honestly, having a Lionel-Groulx setup sounds good on the forum, but I think it will be a difficult engineering project that will add considerably to both the DRL and the Crosstown's cost and time spent in construction. For a cross-platform transfer, we lose a stop at Flemingdon Park, a stop at Ferrand, a comparatively easier tunneling job under Don Mills and the ability to extend the DRL up Don Mills for the foreseeable future. If it's a 'victory', then it's a Battle of the Somme kind of victory.

Metrolinx and TTC are telling us that ridership on this corridor is so low that in-median LRT on either side of Don Mills will be adequate for the foreseeable future. Then we have UT posters say that it should be a Lionel-Groulx cross platform transfer to allow for capacity greater then any other interchange in the TTC network.

The best we can hope for at this point is to have the ECLRT move to the south side at Leslie. Then the DRL interchange station at Don Mills can be built together with the ECLRT.

It seems that so much of the DRL future depends on Eglinton being built correctly. After years of lobbying by UT members, we are still no closer to a grade-separated line to Don Mills. It would appear that the number one transit priority in Toronto is to build an LRT in the median through Leslie. Everything else can be changed, but this segment must remain in the median.

PS. We need to get away from this idea of always tunnelling. Rapid Transit must be grade-separated, and the order of preference should be; separate (rail or hydro) corridor, elevated, cut-and-cover, tunnelled.

 

[andrewpmk]

Yes, of course. Here's the relevant info:

Why is the ridership at Don Mills and Eglinton so low in that model? Does it pretend that the Eglinton LRT does not exist? Does it completely ignore feeder buses or something? I would think that the Eglinton LRT, and buses 25, 54 and 100 alone would produce far more ridership than that model suggests, never mind walk in traffic.

 

[Johnny Au]

Why is the ridership at Don Mills and Eglinton so low in that model? Does it pretend that the Eglinton LRT does not exist? Does it completely ignore feeder buses or something? I would think that the Eglinton LRT, and buses 25, 54 and 100 alone would produce far more ridership than that model suggests, never mind walk in traffic.

...or how busy the Science Centre is?

 

[nfitz]

The Don Mills LRT has been dead for 4 years. It's not coming back. Let me repeat, the Don Mills LRT is dead. Jane might get its LRT or a subway, but I don't see the need of a subway. with Keele and Finch having a subway stop.

What do you mean it's dead? Metrolinx confirmed that it's in the 15-year timeframe of the Big Move earlier this year.

 

[andrewpmk]

...or how busy the Science Centre is?

The Science Center is not a big trip generator. In morning rush hour the vast majority of traffic at Don Mills/Eglinton would be transferring from buses or the Eglinton LRT. It seems like this model must be outdated and pretend that the Eglinton LRT does not exist, producing a meaninglessly low number.

 

[nfitz]

Why is the ridership at Don Mills and Eglinton so low in that model?

3,600 passengers in the peak hour is low? We have stations that don't see that many passengers in an entire hour.

Though, if it is low, then one reason is that if you look at their network, they have the Eglinton line intersecting with the Richmond Hill GO Train just east of the DVP. I expect the model has many of the riders you'd expect to change to the DRL, changing to GO instead - which then intersects the DRL again at River station. I expect if you eliminate that short-cut, then the DRL ridership would be higher.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What do you mean it's dead? Metrolinx confirmed that it's in the 15-year timeframe of the Big Move earlier this year.

And why would they force a transfer at Don Mills Eglinton. That has to be a subway to Finch or Steeles.

 

[nfitz]

...or how busy the Science Centre is?

The Science Centre would generate very little peak-hour (and it's AM that's shown) traffic.

The Flemingdon stop might well be the smallest - at 600 per hour, you'd be looking at 3,600 or so per day. I wonder if it means the station location should be reviewed. The proposed location, in front of the shopping centre, may not be the best spot. I bet it would generate more traffic at Gateway and Grenoble ... and also then allow connection with an intersecting local bus.

Still though, perhaps it does suggest that station isn't necessary ... and maybe the line should come in from the west ... perhaps allow for future development on the industrial lands in the Wickstead/Beth Nealson area.

Personally I'd like to see the subway extend one stop futher to Wynford and Concord ... or perhaps Wynford and the DVP.