nfitz
Superstar
Touché
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I don't disagree with the idea of having public art, but I question the timing. Couldn't this have waited until after the election when politicians aren't like sharks circling around for the slightest hint of blood? The spin squads are in full force, and anything even remotely resembling gravy is going to be jumped on by the Hudak crew. This project doesn't need a bigger bullseye on it than it already has.
jje1000
Senior Member
Hence the reason why it was quick quashed.
I agree. I think Wynne made the right decision in quashing it as soon as it came to light. My point though is that the person who first put it out there should have had a bit more political sense than to put it out there now, especially seeing as how it wasn't integral to the project. It's not like it was a tender for the electrical contract or something.
Marko
Active Member
It's entirely reasonable to plan for public art and to hire a person to oversee the implementation - but $200K per year does seem a bit much when compared to $122K for the curator of the AGO. If the $420K is supposed to cover an office and small team of staff then maybe it's not so bad. That said, I think this should probably be contracted out to an EGD company who will no doubt already be working on the themed environment and wayfinding signage already. Assemble a small panel of volunteer officials and citizens (who get a small honorarium for being involved) and let them select the winning designs. This way the final decisions aren't made by "some six figure bureaucrat" (as it will no doubt be painted).
My beef was more with the timing than the dollar amount. But yes, I agree with you.
In4matt
New Member
I don't live in the area, but I recently drove along Eglinton from the 401 to Yonge. I was surprised by how wide the road in the west (from Martin Grove to Black Creek). As I drove along, I just imagined what the area could look like with the lrt running down the centre of the road. There is more than enough space to add the lrt and not reduce driving lanes. But I know as long as Rob Ford is the mayor, this won't be possible.
Any ways, I like that the lrt will be undergound in the central part (because it was necessary), but I thought it would be cool if the line was elevated from Black Creek or Jane to Pearson. Even though some people believe elevated rail can be ugly and create barriers, having rode the skytrain in Vancouver and elevated subways and express rail in Seoul, I think it can be a great alternative to going underground. If it is elevated in the East, why couldn't it be elevated in the West (especially if it would be cheaper).
Moreover, I would just like to see Pearson be connected to the city by an affordable, quick and accessible transit line. The ARL will be great for people heading downtown, but I think the LRT connection will be more useful for average Torontonians who want accessible and easy way to get to the airport. my friend visiting from Korea was blown away that Pearson didn't have one. I hope this connection can be built within my life time so I will have a chance to use it haha.
Also I heard they are going with POP on the LRT. Does anyone know why? I heard the Skytrain is changing over from POP to fare gates because of fare evasion. Why would they adopt this on the line instead of installing electronic fare gates (like the one in my avatar) that would be integrated with presto. Having used these, I think they are superior to any gate system we have in Toronto.
Has anyone heard anything about when the Pearson part of the Crosstown lrt will be finished by?
Any ways, I like that the lrt will be undergound in the central part (because it was necessary), but I thought it would be cool if the line was elevated from Black Creek or Jane to Pearson. Even though some people believe elevated rail can be ugly and create barriers, having rode the skytrain in Vancouver and elevated subways and express rail in Seoul, I think it can be a great alternative to going underground. If it is elevated in the East, why couldn't it be elevated in the West (especially if it would be cheaper).
Moreover, I would just like to see Pearson be connected to the city by an affordable, quick and accessible transit line. The ARL will be great for people heading downtown, but I think the LRT connection will be more useful for average Torontonians who want accessible and easy way to get to the airport. my friend visiting from Korea was blown away that Pearson didn't have one. I hope this connection can be built within my life time so I will have a chance to use it haha.
Also I heard they are going with POP on the LRT. Does anyone know why? I heard the Skytrain is changing over from POP to fare gates because of fare evasion. Why would they adopt this on the line instead of installing electronic fare gates (like the one in my avatar) that would be integrated with presto. Having used these, I think they are superior to any gate system we have in Toronto.
Has anyone heard anything about when the Pearson part of the Crosstown lrt will be finished by?
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
Suppose to be completed to Pearson by 2020...........oops, I mean 2120.
Probably not for 30 or 40 years at the rate Toronto transit expansion proceeds. Remember this is a city that has only managed rapid transit expansion of just 14km in the last 30 years. Also, it won't happen as the City refuses to even consider elevated transit unlike every other place on the planet. Much of Calgary's new West LRT line under construction will be elevated and will be true mass/rapid transit but even in ultra low-wage Calagary the 8km line is costing only $800 million.
Probably not for 30 or 40 years at the rate Toronto transit expansion proceeds. Remember this is a city that has only managed rapid transit expansion of just 14km in the last 30 years. Also, it won't happen as the City refuses to even consider elevated transit unlike every other place on the planet. Much of Calgary's new West LRT line under construction will be elevated and will be true mass/rapid transit but even in ultra low-wage Calagary the 8km line is costing only $800 million.
Electrify
Senior Member
I think the Pearson connection is currently TBA. Currently the line will be from Black Creek to Scarborough Town Centre by 2020. The speculation is that Metrolinx wants to wait out Ford's term before proceeding with the west end, since there is ample room for a Calgary styled line with ROW and at-grade crossings.
I also agree with you about elevated rail. In the developed world, we are really going to have to review our options for rapid transit over the next century. The construction costs are too high in the developed world for underground transit, and this is becoming true even for areas with high density. For the last few decades, pre-metro light rail lines have been able to support our rapid transit needs, but the limited capacity of these lines may soon make us realize we need fully grade separated mass transit. When this happens, we are going to face a dilemma: Are we going to pour billions into building our transit underground, or are we going to accept visual barriers and build our transit above ground? Personally, I think the latter makes the most sense.
I also agree with you about elevated rail. In the developed world, we are really going to have to review our options for rapid transit over the next century. The construction costs are too high in the developed world for underground transit, and this is becoming true even for areas with high density. For the last few decades, pre-metro light rail lines have been able to support our rapid transit needs, but the limited capacity of these lines may soon make us realize we need fully grade separated mass transit. When this happens, we are going to face a dilemma: Are we going to pour billions into building our transit underground, or are we going to accept visual barriers and build our transit above ground? Personally, I think the latter makes the most sense.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
The best way to build Eglinton West west of Royal York would be a trench similar to the old part of the Yonge Line along one side of the road. This is cheap and will provide more capacity which is badly needed because of the huge volumes of traffic traveling between Toronto and Mississauga, which this extension will connect to via the Mississauga Transitway. (The section of the 401 parallel to this section of Eglinton is the busiest section of highway in Canada).
With the decision to bury Laird Drive to Kennedy the choice of LRT technology makes no sense and should be abandoned.
With the decision to bury Laird Drive to Kennedy the choice of LRT technology makes no sense and should be abandoned.
Justin10000
Banned
And how do you expect subway trains to fit into the SRT ROW? Construction is about to begin, why go through another EA process just to change a technology that was chosen years ago?
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
I actually called the Eglinton LRT project office and I asked why they using LRT instead of Metro, SkyTrain, or Monorail. She was very polite and pleasant and said, afetr a noticeable pause, that it was because eventually the line could be extended using at grade ROW. I then mentioned that Metrolinx has stated that the line would be automated so how could it have at grade and automation at the same time? She didn't know.
I then asked if the line was to be automated why they didn't just upgrade the current SkyTrain and then extend it east. She said it was considered but deemed not worth the expense but I said upgrading a line is surely less expensive than totally ripping up all the tracks and building new ones and she said wasn't sure if it was cheaper. I then asked how much of the $8.2 billion was being used for the transfer of the SkyTrain to LRT on the current SRT and she said she didn't know. I asked her why they were burying it east of Don Mills and she said that Ford would not allow at grade down Eglinton but then I asked why it wasn't elevated and she hummed and hayed and again wasn't sure. I said that of all 4 potential technologies LRT was going to be the most expensive as the tunneling costs were the same but LRT had the added expense of building the overhead power supply and she AGREED!
I asked her about a potential monorail while still using a tunnel from Black Creed to Don Mills to Black Creek but elevating the line from DM to Kennedy as Monorail is the cheapest and fastest to build of all elevated systems and she said that she didn't know anything about Monorails and said she didn't think Monorails had even been considered.
She actually said that she always thought Monorails were more for zoos and amuzement parks so I referred her to the new Rio Monorail proposal Youtube presentation and the the large systems being built around the world and she said she will take a look at the systems as she seemed very surprised that cities were even considering Monorails much less building them.
She also mentioned that the line will be built to accomodate 3 LRT trains {about 100 meters} but probably won't be built that way to begin with as they will only run 2 car trains and build the stations for easy transfer and ability to lengthen then in the future.
She was very pleasant but I was very shocked at just how little she seemed to know and how little thought seems to have been put into this line. I walked away with the impression that this was a line that was more drawn on a map than any real consideration of what the line should be, technology be used, and where it was headed.
Her last comment was probably the most telling.........."atleast SOMETHING is finally going to get built".
I then asked if the line was to be automated why they didn't just upgrade the current SkyTrain and then extend it east. She said it was considered but deemed not worth the expense but I said upgrading a line is surely less expensive than totally ripping up all the tracks and building new ones and she said wasn't sure if it was cheaper. I then asked how much of the $8.2 billion was being used for the transfer of the SkyTrain to LRT on the current SRT and she said she didn't know. I asked her why they were burying it east of Don Mills and she said that Ford would not allow at grade down Eglinton but then I asked why it wasn't elevated and she hummed and hayed and again wasn't sure. I said that of all 4 potential technologies LRT was going to be the most expensive as the tunneling costs were the same but LRT had the added expense of building the overhead power supply and she AGREED!
I asked her about a potential monorail while still using a tunnel from Black Creed to Don Mills to Black Creek but elevating the line from DM to Kennedy as Monorail is the cheapest and fastest to build of all elevated systems and she said that she didn't know anything about Monorails and said she didn't think Monorails had even been considered.
She actually said that she always thought Monorails were more for zoos and amuzement parks so I referred her to the new Rio Monorail proposal Youtube presentation and the the large systems being built around the world and she said she will take a look at the systems as she seemed very surprised that cities were even considering Monorails much less building them.
She also mentioned that the line will be built to accomodate 3 LRT trains {about 100 meters} but probably won't be built that way to begin with as they will only run 2 car trains and build the stations for easy transfer and ability to lengthen then in the future.
She was very pleasant but I was very shocked at just how little she seemed to know and how little thought seems to have been put into this line. I walked away with the impression that this was a line that was more drawn on a map than any real consideration of what the line should be, technology be used, and where it was headed.
Her last comment was probably the most telling.........."atleast SOMETHING is finally going to get built".
jje1000
Senior Member
I think that Metrolinx is hoping that if Ford doesn't return in 2014, they can return to an at-grade option for the outer stretches of the Eglinton line.
Doesn't ICTS track cost more than LRT track?
Ford pushed the line underground, dramatically increasing the costs. Ford has also stated that he doesn't want elevated lines. I blame Metrolinx for not pushing the option, though.
I think that's the sentiment of most people on Eglinton. Seeing two transit plans cancelled/almost cancelled within twenty years- at least something is being done now.
rbt
Senior Member
Straight forward.
Driver in tram from Pearson to first station in tunnel. Driver flips the "auto" switch, gets out, tram continues down the tunnel. Driver takes bathroom break and crosses platform waiting for their scheduled tram to arrive. They get in, turn off the "auto" switch, and drive the tram to Pearson on the surface portion.
For advance operation, you can short-turn 2 out or 3 trams at the tunnel entrance to have 6 minute frequencies on the surface (manually operated) and 2 minute frequencies in the tunnel.
Justin10000
Banned
I doubt the trains are going to be driverless in the tunnel.