[nfitz]

Great question. The original plan was to centralize at Black Creek but that was before the SRT became an extension of Eglinton.

The SRT yard is both small and has an odd shape. It could maintain a use as tailtrack storage for 4 to 8 trains similar to what TTC intends to build on the Yonge line.

I don't see any maintenance capabilities existing in that Yard after Eglinton is finished. That will be centralized for cost savings.

Originally, when the SRT line was going to be a separate LRT line, the yard was at Conlins Road instead of Bellamy. Hard to say what will be the plan in the long-term ... depends what, if anything, every gets built.

 

[accura407]

Despite all the arguments being made...i still do not see why we need anyone on the train itself...

One station manager at each station? Sure...that's a reasonable idea. In this case it would be up to 26 staff members. Fare collection should be automated outright...

Vancouver stations have nothing...no staff on trains or stations...so if the TTC just has staff on stations only i think we've already taken on the best scenerio!

Anything more is just a total waste of money in 2011 and as the last guy put it... "Union excuses" - I agree.

 

[SgtBullmoose]

Despite all the arguments being made...i still do not see why we need anyone on the train itself...

London has people on every train for a reason: if something goes terribly wrong in between stations, there's someone on the train to help. The Central and Victoria lines are all ATO as is the DLR, but there is always still someone in the front cab to make sure accidents don't happen.

Moreover, every station must be staffed by at least one staff member at all times. This is to deter crime. This, too is necessary.

As noted above, in the peak times in busy stations there is also a platform attendant who helps let the drive know when he can close the doors. This would be of great use in Toronto where the drivers usually attempt to close the doors before people have even finished alighting from the train. On the London Overground, there are two people per train as well.

 

[Platform 27]

London has people on every train for a reason: if something goes terribly wrong in between stations, there's someone on the train to help. The Central and Victoria lines are all ATO as is the DLR, but there is always still someone in the front cab to make sure accidents don't happen.

And that "reason" wasn't sufficient for Vancouver to put someone on board.

We're talking about a jurisdiction with pretty interchangeable underlying rules and expectations in terms of safety and liability as Toronto, and they've come to a very different conclusion from London and Montreal's (and Toronto in the case of the SRT) that must massively reduce their operating costs. I'm curious how they got there.

From a customer service perspective, having a human being around (and, preferably, not sealed in a train cab and invisible 99% of the time, but available and accessible) does certainly offer benefits. I'm just curious if it makes more sense to have that person moving with customers between stations on board the train, or whether parking that person on a platform is more useful. Does it make the system substantively less safe and less capable of responding to problems?

Moreover, every station must be staffed by at least one staff member at all times. This is to deter crime. This, too is necessary.

As noted above, in the peak times in busy stations there is also a platform attendant who helps let the drive know when he can close the doors. This would be of great use in Toronto where the drivers usually attempt to close the doors before people have even finished alighting from the train. On the London Overground, there are two people per train as well.

Again, Vancouver doesn't agree that this is a must. They manage permanently-unstaffed stations paired with roving SkyTrain police in concert with their CCTV. It's possible--likely, even--that this decision does involve trade-offs in terms of safety and response time. Don't quote me on this, but I think many CTrain stations in Calgary also don't have permanently-stationed attendants.

 

[rbt]

Again, Vancouver doesn't agree that this is a must. They manage permanently-unstaffed stations paired with roving SkyTrain police in concert with their CCTV. It's possible--likely, even--that this decision does involve trade-offs in terms of safety and response time. Don't quote me on this, but I think many CTrain stations in Calgary also don't have permanently-stationed attendants.

Toronto has had a subway accident involving a number of deaths and injuries. Our safety standards since that point have been well above what is required by law.

So long as that fear remains, safety will trump costs every time.


When a major skytrain accident occurs and these things really are a matter of time, perhaps decades, then Vancouver too may change their attitudes toward such things.


99.99% of short-haul flights don't need a steward either. Get on, grab a seat, get off at the other end. Aside from Newfoundland, buses don't have anyone to make sure you find a seat and put everything away. Their primary purpose is to assist during that rare occurrence when something goes wrong.

 

[nfitz]

Our safety standards since that point have been well above what is required by law.

Surely, that only speaks to the lack of legislated safety standards.

I'd think some transit systems wouldn't let people stand on the narrow platform you see in some stations ... Yonge comes to mind.

 

[rbt]

From a customer service perspective, having a human being around (and, preferably, not sealed in a train cab and invisible 99% of the time, but available and accessible) does certainly offer benefits.

Just to put perspective on the costs involved I've some some back of the envelope math.

There are about 100 trainsets in the system during peak periods (Bloor, Yonge/Spadina, Sheppard, SRT). 3 to 4 shifts should be enough to cover a week (splits, spares, etc.) and we will pay them a nice $75,000 which is the high-end of TTC driver salaries.

This works out to an upper range of 6 cents per trip for a single person per train. Actual cost may be 3 to 4 cents per trip as I was looking for an upper end of the cost.

Driver + doorman is a maximum of 12 cents per trip.


If automation costs $0, then we can defer a fare increase by about a single year through this. Automation will not cost $0 though.

 

[Platform 27]

Just to put perspective on the costs involved I've some some back of the envelope math.

There are about 100 trainsets in the system during peak periods (Bloor, Yonge/Spadina, Sheppard, SRT). 3 to 4 shifts should be enough to cover a week (splits, spares, etc.) and we will pay them a nice $75,000 which is the high-end of TTC driver salaries.

This works out to an upper range of 6 cents per trip for a single person per train. Actual cost may be 3 to 4 cents per trip as I was looking for an upper end of the cost.

Driver + doorman is a maximum of 12 cents per trip.


If automation costs $0, then we can defer a fare increase by about a single year through this. Automation will not cost $0 though.

Let's assume the per-passenger operating cost for a single subway ride in Toronto is about $2.50 -- I'm basing that on an assumption that average cost of a TTC fare, factoring in metropasses and the like, is about that much, and the subway system alone (not including the bus and streetcar network) is running at around 100% cost-recovery.

If it is really 12 cents per rider for a driver and a guard, then more than 95 per cent of the operating cost is coming from the various overheads like electricity, cleaning, vehicle servicing, and the salary of the guys in the collector booths, while less than 5 per cent is stemming from on-train labour.

Isn't that a little hard to believe?

 

[Amy Rose]

Despite all the arguments being made...i still do not see why we need anyone on the train itself...

One station manager at each station? Sure...that's a reasonable idea. In this case it would be up to 26 staff members. Fare collection should be automated outright...

Vancouver stations have nothing...no staff on trains or stations...so if the TTC just has staff on stations only i think we've already taken on the best scenerio!

Anything more is just a total waste of money in 2011 and as the last guy put it... "Union excuses" - I agree.

Unless TTC has secretly planned bus bays that are in a fare paid zone for each station with a route that crosses it, you will need a fare collector to take a look at the transfers, because the transfers currently and probably will not have anything that would be compatible with the fare automation system, so right off the bat, the line will have less ridership from their feeder routes with the exception of Don Mills, Kennedy, and STC stations.

 

[rbt]

If it is really 12 cents per rider for a driver and a guard, then more than 95 per cent of the operating cost is coming from the various overheads like electricity, cleaning, vehicle servicing, and the salary of the guys in the collector booths, while less than 5 per cent is stemming from on-train labour.

Isn't that a little hard to believe?

You forgot the bus and bus driver they used to get to the subway and (potentially) the bus and driver they used to get away from their destination subway station.

Most TTC trips involve at least one transfer.

The cost per passenger for a bus driver (1 per 60 during rush) is significantly higher than the cost per passenger for a subway driver (1 per 800 to 1100 passengers during rush).


Anyway, yes, I believe it. The TTC has found actual savings to be negligible when reducing train service. The main reason we run trains every 5 minutes at night instead of every 10 is because the actual cost of running the train is a small component of the cost of the subway system.

Various TTC budget documents discuss this point but rarely give specific numbers.


Anyway, make a list of all of the subway staff. Fare collectors, security, medics, garbage pickup, inspections, control, train maintenance, rail repair, tunnel liner repair, painters, cleaning staff, electricians, plumbers, ceiling cleaning crews, escalator repair crews, network engineers/communications, signal repair/installation/inspection crews, management, etc.

Drivers and doormen are in the minority of staff.


Give $1.25 to the bus/tram portion of the trip and 10% of the remainder actually seems on the high side.

 

[In4matt]

Does any one know if the Crosstown will be POP? I think they should just have fare gates that accept Presto (and one time tokens/tickets) with automatic gates that close if you don't pay (I think this is what Vancouver is adding to the skytrain). I would be disappointed if Presto isn't the most used method of payment by the time this line is open.

 

[rbt]

Isn't that a little hard to believe?

Lets do this from the other side. Assume that rush periods offset 1am periods and lets do a calculation of riders on a train during the afternoon.

A train takes about 1 hour to complete a Finch to Downsview run at 2pm. Exactly one hour is a convenient time and good enough for an approximation. Off-peak loading standard is about 400 people per train and some level of churn will occur. In fact, 100% churn, at a minimum, occurs during the downtown section.

Lets assume 300 people between Finch and Union with 30% churn (some get off an Eglinton and others get on, etc); so 390 people in total. Ignore Bloor because it is paid for (transfer from another manned subway system).

Lets take 200 out of downtown to Downsview with 20% churn (240 people).

So, 630 people over an hour contribute a portion of their fare to cover the driver and doorman. Driver + Doorman cost $100 per hour between the two of them. ($30 take home and $20 in employee overhead)

In the middle of the afternoon on a train with empty seats going into and out of downtown, we get 16 cents.

Rush hour is closer to 1800 people on the train at any point during its trip, or 5.5 cents for driver + doorman.

1am is probably closer to 200 people on the train at any point during its trip, or 50 cents per passenger for driver + doorman. Lots more rush-hour trains than midnight trains though (over double) so I expect it balances out to something similar to the afternoon.

So I get 12 cents from one direction and about 16 cents from the other.

I think it is fare to say the upper limit (given wide margins for error in my estimates from selecting convenient numbers) it is between 6 and 25 cents per passenger and probably somewhere in the middle (12 to 16).

Higher churn or capacity per train pushes the value down. Lower churn or reduced passenger count per train pushes it up. Line delays push significantly higher. The Bloor dwell time reduction initiative pushes it lower as do Toronto Rockets coming online. So, SRT and Sheppard will be higher but Bloor line has higher churn than Yonge/Spadina so it may be lower.


You can tease a real number from the stats as they give actual train counts, actual running times, and approximate passenger counts for all lines. Add in a spare ratio for staff (breaks, sickness, etc.) and use a reasonable hourly salary (65,000/year without overtime) and overhead (2/3rds hourly wage).

Significant overtime for Employee A to reach $120,000/year means employee Z doesn't exist.

I'm pretty happy with my thumbsuck estimate though so I will not be doing this.

 

[Still Waters]

Does any one know if the Crosstown will be POP?

Yes, it will be. And I believe that the expectation is that Presto will be the primary method of fare collection on this line by the time it opens. It was never intended to have ticket collectors in any of the stations on the Crosstown and I think that still remains the intention now that the whole line is underground. Not sure whether actual fare gates will be there on opening day or whether they will be added later if needed (a la Sky Train).

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The escalators in the Ossington subway station are out of service (see this link). Makes this station inaccessible to some seniors and handicapped. Putting all the Eglinton Crosstown LRT stations underground means the same problems can occur with those stations. If they were stops at the surface they would be easier to be accessible for all at all times.

 

[gweed123]

The escalators in the Ossington subway station are out of service (see this link). Makes this station inaccessible to some seniors and handicapped. Putting all the Eglinton Crosstown LRT stations underground means the same problems can occur with those stations. If they were stops at the surface they would be easier to be accessible for all at all times.

Wow, that's a pretty weak argument for surface stations. Hey, you know when surface stations are inaccessible to people in wheelchairs? When it's a snowstorm, and the plow on the cross street just went by and left a mountain of snow in front of the entrance to the platform. I guess we should stop building surface stations too...