[freshcutgrass]

Well to quote you...



That stretch of King Street is far, far, far from terrible. Just saying'.

Aesthetically and functionally, the warehouses don't engage the street well at all. The most animated part of them...is a Tim Hortons. The sidewalk is so narrow, there is no room for a shelter for the streetcar stop.

The city has an endless supply of plain old turn-of-the-century brick warehouses to convert into post & beam lofts & offices...what we don't have an endless supply of are proposals like the Cloud Podium proposal.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

You don't really understand what you're talking about at all, do you? For the most part the buildings have prominent front entrances and large windows at street level, which is pretty much the definition of "engaging the street well". It's unfortunate, but the white paint and some of the current tenant's signage really disguises the beauty and functionality of these buildings. If they looked more like the buildings on King west of Spadina (which they are actually very similar to in terms of built form) I suspect that the casual observer would be more likely to support saving them.

There are actually very few "plain turn turn-of-the-century brick warehouses" relative to the size of the city and they tend to be in very high demand. Just look at how few true "hard loft" residential in the city - only a handful, with few new units being built. What we do have is an endless supply of non-heritage buildings that could be torn down to build this elsewhere.

 

[Tewder]

Aesthetically and functionally, the warehouses don't engage the street well at all. The most animated part of them...is a Tim Hortons. The sidewalk is so narrow, there is no room for a shelter for the streetcar stop.

If narrow sidewalks are your issue you must dislike pretty much all Toronto streets. As for the warehouses, they are not exactly the coal bunkers you make them out to be. The diversity of architecture here, building materials and uses make for a downtown block that is anything but 'terrible'. The Gehry podium certainly looked amazing but its absence doesn't render what's already there an urban failure, when it isn't a failure to begin with... and if there is any built form known that has a track record for disengaging with its surrounding urban context it's that of the massive block-scaled podium, no matter how pretty it is.

The city has an endless supply of plain old turn-of-the-century brick warehouses to convert into post & beam lofts & offices...what we don't have an endless supply of are proposals like the Cloud Podium proposal.

'Endless supply' is a bit of a stretch but yeah, i get your point. Grand schemes such as this don't just fall out of the sky. The point i'm not sure you're getting is that this alternative take is still an amazingly grand scheme, and a visionary one in many respects. It's still a win, even if the parameters of this win are slightly different.

 

[verticalvillage]

Based off a more recent photo:

 

[Gphorce]

Those look pretty amazing actually, while the cloud podium might be lost, if you weren't following this project from the beginning you would still think this proposal was phenomenal.

 

[Tewder]

What's happening at ground level will be pretty amazing too, block-wide podium or no.

 

[Big Daddy]

Those look pretty amazing actually, while the cloud podium might be lost, if you weren't following this project from the beginning you would still think this proposal was phenomenal.

I don't think it's phenomenal anymore, just tall - and only "tall" in terms of Canadian buildings.

 

[freshcutgrass]

You don't really understand what you're talking about at all, do you?

Oh...you mean like how according to you the Mirvish Gallery was to contain the decorations from his dad's old restaurants??? ha ha ha

No...I know exactly what I'm talking about....as we shall see.

For the most part the buildings have prominent front entrances and large windows at street level, which is pretty much the definition of "engaging the street well".

As a matter of fact, none of the warehouses have street level entrances. They were built with raised basements. These buildings were not intended to meet the street very well, as they were purpose built as warehouse/manufacturing buildings. So who doesn't know what they are talking about?

It's unfortunate, but the white paint and some of the current tenant's signage really disguises the beauty and functionality of these buildings. If they looked more like the buildings on King west of Spadina (which they are actually very similar to in terms of built form) I suspect that the casual observer would be more likely to support saving them.

Well no...I wouldn't put these on par with many of those warehouse buildings between Spadina & Bathurst. But even if they were, it wouldn't matter. That stretch of King between Spadina & Bathurst has continuity (and lots of older victorian buildings as well)....the Mirvish warehouses are the odd balls in that whole area. Not only are they insignificant in every way, they actually detract from the continuity of that area of King. If they were such prime buildings, they would house something more prominent than Filthy McNasty's and Tim Hortons.

I would be more protective of that Spadina/Bathurst stretch...even Restaurant Row, but even then, I wouldn't completely discount demolition under the right circumstances. I believe in sacred cows, but none of these bloody warehouses qualify.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

You have a very narrow definition of meeting the street well. Most of the buildings have formal, impressive main entrances - hence the stairs, pillars, canopies, etc. The only one that does not is the one with Dunn's in it, and that has a street level main entrance. I take it you are not a fan of the building with Elephant and Castle in it? Same idea there.

The tenant quality isn't surprising given the poor maintenance of the buildings and plans for their demise. I am sure that if Mirvish restored them they could get much classier tenants, but no lessee is going to invest heavily into fixing up a space that is due to be torn down.

Anyway, it sounds like we have diametrically opposing views on this issue. Would you have supported tearing down Old City Hall because it detracted from the continuity of the area?

 

[buildup]

You have a very narrow definition of meeting the street well. Most of the buildings have formal, impressive main entrances - hence the stairs, pillars, canopies, etc. The only one that does not is the one with Dunn's in it, and that has a street level main entrance. I take it you are not a fan of the building with Elephant and Castle in it? Same idea there.

The tenant quality isn't surprising given the poor maintenance of the buildings and plans for their demise. I am sure that if Mirvish restored them they could get much classier tenants, but no lessee is going to invest heavily into fixing up a space that is due to be torn down.

Anyway, it sounds like we have diametrically opposing views on this issue. Would you have supported tearing down Old City Hall because it detracted from the continuity of the area?

FCG I think the moderator warned against systematically demolishing opposing arguments. Im almost feeling sorry for the ape. The last line (above) is a plea for mercy basically, total red herring.

I thought that, with rare exceptions, it was now understood that elevated entrances where people need to walk up steps to get somewhere is generally a failure. Exceptions are monumental or institutional edifices where access is a purposeful challenge - justice buildings, goverment, libraries. The idea is to remind people of the challenge they are undertaking, and the awe they should have. But for retail, elevated entrances are generally a pain.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

FCG I think the moderator warned against systematically demolishing opposing arguments. Im almost feeling sorry for the ape. The last line (above) is a plea for mercy basically, total red herring.

I thought that, with rare exceptions, it was now understood that elevated entrances where people need to walk up steps to get somewhere is generally a failure. Exceptions are monumental or institutional edifices where access is a purposeful challenge - justice buildings, goverment, libraries. The idea is to remind people of the challenge they are undertaking, and the awe they should have. But for retail, elevated entrances are generally a pain.

Actually, no. The warning is against posting meaningless BS and pointless feather ruffling like:

Oh and BTW....you can pick on me all you like...I can take it as well as dish it...just make sure you can.

Systematically attempting to demolish one another's argument is called debate.

On another more important note, the project got approval from council.

AoD

 

[Bayer]

Mirvish + Gehry Toronto team pleased with today's decision by City Council

 

[Benito]

That is great news, but also was the expected outcome.

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

FCG I think the moderator warned against systematically demolishing opposing arguments. Im almost feeling sorry for the ape. The last line (above) is a plea for mercy basically, total red herring.

I thought that, with rare exceptions, it was now understood that elevated entrances where people need to walk up steps to get somewhere is generally a failure. Exceptions are monumental or institutional edifices where access is a purposeful challenge - justice buildings, goverment, libraries. The idea is to remind people of the challenge they are undertaking, and the awe they should have. But for retail, elevated entrances are generally a pain.

My comment about Old City Hall was obviously hyperbolic, but it's basically the same argument - everything else around it was torn down, so what was previously harmonious became a source of discontinuity. Is the solution then to tear down the remaining historical buildings, or to save them so at least we have something left?

When these buildings were constructed, it was common for companies (and their owners) to want to imbue that same sense of awe and strength to signify to customers that they were safe and dependable. That's why you see things like lowly warehouses with grand entrances. Of course it sets back the main entrance from the street, but that was the point.

Now that the proposal was approved, I guess we get to find out just how much it will cost to have the honour of living in a Gehry?

 

[ChristopherC]

wow out of the three potential supertall projects in toronto (Pinnacle One Yonge and Oxford Place being the other two), I wouldn't of ever guessed that this project would be the first to get approved. The One Yonge project is still my favorite project in toronto but im very pleased that this project is doing so well. Gonna be a great addition to our city!