T3G said:
Good grief, this is really becoming a gongshow. What's next, putting those lines on the Toronto subway map?

And how do they propose to stop those from being confused with MiWay and HSR routes of the same numbers as what they choose? Why are local transit projects being run by a regional transit authority? Why is said authority integrating the numbering of the TTC system with lines in other cities? None of this makes the slightest sense.
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I believe their justification for unifying branding was for all transit within the region on the same “tier” to have a common identifier language. All metro and LRT identified with the same system and design, just as all GO are identified with their same system and design. Local bus services are obviously keeping their respective branding.

I agree that having two isolated lines with the same branding as the Toronto subway doesn’t really help someone trying to get around in Toronto, but it is becoming increasingly more evident that Metrolinx is planning with a wider regional focus and using the GO network as the anchoring feature, rather than focusing on municipal boundaries, which I think makes sense given the way that the entire GGH is developing.
 
ericmacm said:
Both the Hurontario and Hamilton LRTs are almost 100% going to be numbered 7 and 8 and branded in context with the remainder of the subway system, and it’s been planned like that for at least 3 or 4 years. They’ve already got colours and signage picked out (teal for Hurontario and lime green for Hamilton). The numbers are not finalized yet, and probably won’t be until construction is finished, but all the signs point towards full branding integration.

From the 2019 Metrolinx Wayfinding Standards Document:
View attachment 450280
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The Hurontario and Hamilton lines can have a unified appearance with the other inside-of-Toronto line, but their own unique numbering scheme to fit with their regional peculiarities. To assume that they will somehow fit into the Toronto numbering scheme is silly. That would require the TTC to renumber a bunch of additional routes, and there has been no indication of that happening.

Dan
 
ericmacm said:
I agree that having two isolated lines with the same branding as the Toronto subway doesn’t really help someone trying to get around in Toronto, but it is becoming increasingly more evident that Metrolinx is planning with a wider regional focus and using the GO network as the anchoring feature, rather than focusing on municipal boundaries, which I think makes sense given the way that the entire GGH is developing.
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Which is fine, I don't have any issue with that, if it is logical for services to cross municipal boundaries, then that is exactly what should happen, and I'm in full favour of fare integration across the GGH, too, but any kind of numbering scheme goes too far in service of this. Unless or until such time as the various transit agencies of the GGH are all consolidated under the Metrolinx umbrella, it is still necessary to distinguish between them. And even then, it may be necessary to distinguish local routes by the region they serve, as the overwhelming majority of Toronto routes will only run in Toronto, and ditto for any other city nearby, so I'm not sure we'd achieve anything by abolishing the separate agencies at all.
 
T3G said:
Which is fine, I don't have any issue with that, if it is logical for services to cross municipal boundaries, then that is exactly what should happen, and I'm in full favour of fare integration across the GGH, too, but any kind of numbering scheme goes too far in service of this. Unless or until such time as the various transit agencies of the GGH are all consolidated under the Metrolinx umbrella, it is still necessary to distinguish between them. And even then, it may be necessary to distinguish local routes by the region they serve, as the overwhelming majority of Toronto routes will only run in Toronto, and ditto for any other city nearby, so I'm not sure we'd achieve anything by abolishing the separate agencies at all.
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Metrolinx is still trying to do the London UK Model that been on the books since 2007.

Until they full control all system in the areas they run in, its going to be confusing to riders in various areas on numbering system.

Need full fare integration as step 1.
 
smallspy said:
The Hurontario and Hamilton lines can have a unified appearance with the other inside-of-Toronto line, but their own unique numbering scheme to fit with their regional peculiarities. To assume that they will somehow fit into the Toronto numbering scheme is silly.
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Hamilton seems silly - but it's quite plausible, if not probable, that the Hurontario LRT (and proposed extensions) might well intersect Line 2, Line 5, and/or Line 6 in the coming years.

smallspy said:
That would require the TTC to renumber a bunch of additional routes, and there has been no indication of that happening.
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I don't see any issues with having bus route numbers that overlap Lines elsewhere.

I'm not even sure I see the big issue with having a 6 Bay bus and a Line 6 Finch West.
 
In New York City they use...

M1 to M125 for the buses within Manhattan.
B1 to B103 and B110 for the buses within Brooklyn.
Bx1 to Bx99 for the buses within Bronx.
Q1 to Q115 for the buses within Queens.
S40 to S98 for the buses within Staten Island.

Maybe we should have letter prefixes as well...
 
nfitz said:
I don't see any issues with having bus route numbers that overlap Lines elsewhere.
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If you have a numbering convention that dictates low numbers are rail lines, having other services with that same number generates confusion and undercuts that numbering scheme.

What's the point of knowing "ah, line 7 should be a rail service" (itself a worthless piece of information), if there are other route 7s? That's why the regional approach makes no sense and it is crucial to distinguish the transit agencies from one another.

nfitz said:
I'm not even sure I see the big issue with having a 6 Bay bus and a Line 6 Finch West.
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You don't anticipate an issue with two services, both run by the TTC and in the same city, both connecting to line 1, having the same numbers?

The general public already gets confused and the TTC is one of the simplest systems to understand. We don't need to make it more confusing.

"How do I get to your place?"
"Take the 6."
"I did! Now I'm in deep Rexdale!"
"Not that 6, the other 6!"
 
T3G said:
If you have a numbering convention that dictates low numbers are rail lines, having other services with that same number generates confusion and undercuts that numbering scheme.

What's the point of knowing "ah, line 7 should be a rail service" (itself a worthless piece of information), if there are other route 7s? That's why the regional approach makes no sense and it is crucial to distinguish the transit agencies from one another.


You don't anticipate an issue with two services, both run by the TTC and in the same city, both connecting to line 1, having the same numbers?

The general public already gets confused and the TTC is one of the simplest systems to understand. We don't need to make it more confusing.

"How do I get to your place?"
"Take the 6."
"I did! Now I'm in deep Rexdale!"
"Not that 6, the other 6!"
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I don't anticipate issues. I don't think real people think like that at all. I don't see anyone rushing to the intersection of 7 and 11 to buy milk. Or being concerned that the number 5 went up Highway 11.

Though if it is a big issue for management, it's easy enough to just renumber a few bus routes.

If it could create confusion, then surely having a route 7 bus after Lines 5 and 6 open, will also confuse people to thinking that 7 Bathurst isn't a subway! So renumber anything less than 10 now. (not that I think it does create confusion ...)

What I have found confusing elsewhere, is that in Seoul, there's two line 1s. Because one is in Incheon. But all the lines intersect each other. To make it worse, Line 1 intersects Line 1!

(I haven't been there for a while - looking at a map, not only have they not fixed it, there's now two Line 2s! And while Line 2 doesn't intersect Line 2, the Incheon Line 2 intersects both Line 1s! And the first Line 1 (and Line 7) intersect both Line 2s! I'm sure the locals are fine with it - but it's not transparent to those new to the city. Especially as they all arrive in Incheon and not Seoul, as that's where the airport is!).
 
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I think real people would be very much confused if two different services have the exact same number. I don't see how your Highway 11 or 711 examples are comparable at all. 711 is the name of a store, and Highway 11 is a street, liable to cause as much confusion as the Bayview bus being numbered 11 instead of just being named Bayview, as the routes of old were. "How come this bus doesn't go to Highway 11?"

On the other hand, having two services with the same number at the same transit agency is very much liable to cause confusion. I can't possibly imagine how it wouldn't!! You are a tourist or newcomer and you punch in the route 6 on the TTC website. Why are there two? What is going on here? Remember, you have insider information. You know all about the transit system and you see that there is a discussion about renumbering, and you know if you need to go somewhere, to distinguish between 6 Bay and 6 Finch West. Most people you meet out there not only don't have that information, but they can barely put their pants on in the morning without getting confused.

As for the 7 Bathurst, your point just inadvertently highlights the worthlessness of that numbering convention. Any reasonably intelligent person who needs to use transit is going to research what service they need to use before they use it. They're not going to think "ah, this route intersects with the 7, and I need to use the subway, therefore this must be it." They are going to find out exactly what routes they need to use and how to get there, and it doesn't matter to them whether the service is signed by a number, letter, Windings, or alien glyphs from Mars.
 
T3G said:
I think real people would be very much confused if two different services have the exact same number.
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I disagree. If I'm wrong, we better renumber the 501 bus that services York University!

As for who is running it - I doubt most would be aware of who is running any given subway line. I certainly don't know the differences when I am riding in cities, where different organizations are running interconnected services!
 
nfitz said:
I disagree. If I'm wrong, we better renumber the 501 bus that services York University!

As for who is running it - I doubt most would be aware of who is running any given subway line. I certainly don't know the differences when I am riding in cities, where different organizations are running interconnected services!
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I only have to look at Amsterdam to see 2 name's for the Metro lines and operator's, let alone bus service that has more than one operator running it. The tram lines are under one name.

We only have to go to York Region to see 4 different operators running it's bus service.

I didn't know there was a 501 bus line, then I rarely up there in the first place to have seen it in the first place. OH!! we are taking about Brampton 500's series buses.
 
nfitz said:
I disagree. If I'm wrong, we better renumber the 501 bus that services York University!
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I think that the number + name combination chosen for the 501 Zum Queen is a really, really provocative and stupid idea, but the damage is at least lessened somewhat by a) having only a single stop in the city of Toronto, b) belonging to another transit agency, so it doesn't come up when you search up 501 on the TTC site, and c) being used predominantly by students, who as a general rule I've noticed tend to be more observant and discerning than the population at large. If you tried running the Brampton 501 down to Queen and Yonge, it would be carnage.

nfitz said:
As for who is running it - I doubt most would be aware of who is running any given subway line. I certainly don't know the differences when I am riding in cities, where different organizations are running interconnected services!
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No, but you know you are in Mississauga, so you are going to search up a Mississauga bus route on their website and be assured that only one route of that number is going to come up. You know you're not going to get the same route number from Toronto or York or Durham, nor is there a second service of the same number running in Mississauga for you to confuse it with.

Keep it simple. Always. Remember, the average person doesn't care whether their service is run by subway, tram, bus, van, rickshaw, or magnetically suspended monorails from Mars. All they know is that they need to use route 6 to get to their destination. The distinction is not significant enough to justify having two route 6s in the same city by the same transit agency.
 
T3G said:
I think that the number + name combination chosen for the 501 Zum Queen is a really, really provocative and stupid idea ...
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The only time it causes me confusion, is when I see a tweet about the 501 Queen not running, and turns out it was not the TTC 501 Queen.
 
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