If I use $60,000 today for driver wages. At 3% yearly increase, it become $145,636 by 2040.

The cost saving between BRT and LRT drivers doing a one bus and one LRV moving the same load is $120, 006, 428 in favour of LRT. Have not added other staff to these numbers, but need 5 supervisors in total for Hurontario.

If I go to 2 LRT vs a bus, the cost saving jumps to $210, 012, 748.

Cost of vehicles is harder to determined due a whole range of issues, but at 1% increase/yr a $1m bus will cost $1,347,849 vs a $4m LRV costing $5,391,396.

If We buy 48 BRT now and every 10 years, total cost is $319, 901, 488.

If we buy 28 LRV now and in 30 years, total cost is $150, 959, 079. That a total of $168, 942, 410 less $35m to do mid life rebuilt leaving a saving of $168, 325, 410.

Between driver and vehicles, LRT just saved $240, 016, 855 to $378, 955, 158 and made up the cost difference in capital cost.

The big unknown and anyone want to take a stab at is the cost of fuel. Fuel is $.88/lr today, but well over $5 in 30 years. It cost $75,000 per bus to replace batteries every 3 years going hybrid. This will be the biggest cost saving area for LRT and over labour.

These 3 areas are the strongest selling point for LRT over BRT without looking at density or land value return.

We need to sell LRT to both Metrolinx and the Government now, otherwise the BRT folks at Metrolinx are going to be selling a lot of SRT lines.

There are and will be a need for BRT, but Hurontario St in Mississauga and Main/King in Hamilton need LRT today. Parts of VIVA and DRT BRT need to be BRT.

The section from Steeles to RHC needs to be LRT, not Subway for VIVA.

Once you drop your headway below 2 minutes for a bus, you need to move to LRT.

All future comments by me for Sherway will in that thread.

I'm sorry but I must refute several of the claims being made in this post.

No, you do not move on to LRT if regular bus headways narrow. You implement BRT in a dedicated ROW with articulated buses commanding the fleet. I know many here have come to believe that riding aboard a cram-packed vehicle is a norm but it should not be so. By awaiting every 5 minutes for a LRT tram we're being habituated to accept that reality and not strive for better. If any of you use GO buses, you'd know that that's the standard for BRT local operators should aim for. Big spacious seating areas, limited stops, dedicated ROW (in GO's case HOV lanes). Finch is a great case example for where BRT is suficient and LRT would fail. 77 second headways during rush hour means you put the buses in a right, place compartmentalized vehicles down the route which automatically nixes a third of buses on the roads, buses that have a carrying capacity able to match that of 2-car LRVs. You put in all-door boarding, you give it queue jumps and priority at intersections. Everything we've been duped into thinking cannot be achieved with regular "old smoggy" buses... CAN!

The Orion VII buses cost around $488,000 apiece. A standard diesel bus might cost $250,000 to $280,000. Where are you getting these million-dollar bus figures from? It is no lie though that the new low-floorTransit City LRT trams will cost a cool $5 million a piece, now today. That's 10x the difference. Also life expectancy of hybrid as a standard is 20 years but we've still got buses manufactured in the 1970s running along our streets so so much for discrediting bus transit in that regard. And since cities are always proactively buying buses, the upcoming costs won't be as high as you're predicting. You do neglect however that LRT currently costs 80%-90% more than buses so in the future that gap will widen out even further to about $10 million/LRV vs. $1.5 million/bus. That's why so many cities turn to BRT, not just because they have a lower intial cost but because the operation and maintenance cost of LRT is so much higher than BRT that its impossible for the transit operator to ever see a return on investment. Curitiba, Brisbane and Bogota are making a profit and the surpluses are going towards other public works projects such as the creation of crosstown bike lanes in those cities. TransMilenio has proved that BRT can carry up to 45,000 passengers PER HOUR in each direction (not per day) - comfortably and efficiently, and at a fraction of the cost of LRT (4 to 20 times less). SOURCE: http://www.itdp.org/index.php/microsite/brt_planning_guide/

The price of fuel always fluccuates, it's been so since the 1950s. Right now the cost of oil in Toronto is a mere 98.7 cents per litre. We're not to use that as a negative against bus transit which last I checked comprises 100% of Mississauaga Transit's fleet and operations as well 87% of the TTC's. Buses are perpetually the unsung heroes of mass transit despite not being prone to random blackouts and line closures like some other modes. If we invest in ways to make their viable more palatable to the masses, the masses will come in droves to ride aboard them.

Furthermore, why do you assume that steps aren't proactively being made to outpace our dependency on diesel to fuel buses?

British Columbia right now is developing a hydrogen bus fleet that will be even more energy efficient with an even longer shelf-life than hybrid electric. Why can't Toronto be innovative in this regard as well? Now that the newness of CNG technology was worn off prices for these vehicles are nearing parity with hybrid electric so it'd be very affordable for Toronto and environs to consider it, surely ahead of trams it cannot afford, delaying delivery times to start serving the transit using public.

Studies show that composite average costs per mile to operate a standard bus actually goes down over time with miles per year estimates of 10,000 = 62.0 cents; 15,000 = 52.2 cents; 20,000 = 47.7 cents. So by the 20,000 mileage mark buses can average costs per day x 365 days of $4,303 - $6,763. To use American statistics, Energy Information Administration on June 26, 2009, stated that the amount of fuel comsumed annually by public transit buses is peanuts compared to amount of fuel its usage has saved. The diesel chugged by 480,000 school buses that each carry an average of 54 students per bus produced a total annual car fuel COST savings by students riding school buses of $8,243,039,841 and a total U. S. savings in fuel cost per year of $6,097,028,413. Now you might say that such results could be duplicated by mass rail transit. However rail transit is very expensive to implement, operate and modernize as the system starts to age.

Which leads finally to this point that everyone I've debated with thus far can't seem to grasp. Evidence suggests that BRT can offer overall cost savings, despite its higher operating costs over all but the lowest range of capacity. Given that LRV incurs higher energy cost since it is larger and is more prone to failure, even when the driver's salary is about same the evidence demonstrates that BRT can cost as low as $90 versus $250 for LRT in daily O & M costs. And BRT can cover 10 times the surface area, meaning more people become dependent on the service over LRT which is limited to a set number of kilometre down select corridors that people from afar must transfer onto. Just thought I'd give some balance to the egregiously lop-sided LRT v. BRT debate.
 
Hurontario/Main Street Study Public Information Centres: LRT Identified as Preferred Option


Mar 23, 2010

Read More: http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/ci...s;jsessionid=WHTC2LO13EBVJTRPH3XD4FWOF25W4PW0


The Cities of Mississauga and Brampton are hosting public information centres to present the findings of the joint Hurontario/Main Street Study, which identifies Light Rail Transit (LRT) as the preferred option for the corridor.

The Hurontario/Main Street Study explored options for rapid transit development, land use and urban design along the corridor, which runs from Port Credit to downtown Brampton. The study is part of Metrolinx’s Regional Transportation Plan, THE BIG MOVE, that identified the corridor as one of 15 priority projects for the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area.

Public Information Centres:

City of Brampton
Brampton City Hall – Atrium
2 Wellington Street West
(Wellington Street and Main Street)
Tuesday, March 30, 2010
5 to 8 p.m.

City of Mississauga
Mississauga Civic Centre - Great Hall
300 City Centre Drive
(Duke of York Boulevard and Burnhamthorpe Road)
Wednesday, March 31, 2010
5 to 8 p.m.


For more information on the Hurontario/Main Street Study:

• visit:
www.hurontario-main.ca

• e-mail or telephone:

Shawn De Jager, City of Brampton Project Leader
905-874-2750, ext. 2620
shawn.dejager@brampton.ca

Matthew Williams, City of Mississauga Project Leader
matthew.williams@mississauga.ca
905-615-3200, ext. 5834

Find us on Facebook to discover more about the Hurontario/Main Street Study.
 
I'm sorry but I must refute several of the claims being made in this post.

No, you do not move on to LRT if regular bus headways narrow. You implement BRT in a dedicated ROW with articulated buses commanding the fleet. I know many here have come to believe that riding aboard a cram-packed vehicle is a norm but it should not be so. By awaiting every 5 minutes for a LRT tram we're being habituated to accept that reality and not strive for better. If any of you use GO buses, you'd know that that's the standard for BRT local operators should aim for. Big spacious seating areas, limited stops, dedicated ROW (in GO's case HOV lanes). Finch is a great case example for where BRT is suficient and LRT would fail. 77 second headways during rush hour means you put the buses in a right, place compartmentalized vehicles down the route which automatically nixes a third of buses on the roads, buses that have a carrying capacity able to match that of 2-car LRVs. You put in all-door boarding, you give it queue jumps and priority at intersections. Everything we've been duped into thinking cannot be achieved with regular "old smoggy" buses... CAN!

The Orion VII buses cost around $488,000 apiece. A standard diesel bus might cost $250,000 to $280,000. Where are you getting these million-dollar bus figures from? It is no lie though that the new low-floorTransit City LRT trams will cost a cool $5 million a piece, now today. That's 10x the difference. Also life expectancy of hybrid as a standard is 20 years but we've still got buses manufactured in the 1970s running along our streets so so much for discrediting bus transit in that regard. And since cities are always proactively buying buses, the upcoming costs won't be as high as you're predicting. You do neglect however that LRT currently costs 80%-90% more than buses so in the future that gap will widen out even further to about $10 million/LRV vs. $1.5 million/bus. That's why so many cities turn to BRT, not just because they have a lower intial cost but because the operation and maintenance cost of LRT is so much higher than BRT that its impossible for the transit operator to ever see a return on investment. Curitiba, Brisbane and Bogota are making a profit and the surpluses are going towards other public works projects such as the creation of crosstown bike lanes in those cities. TransMilenio has proved that BRT can carry up to 45,000 passengers PER HOUR in each direction (not per day) - comfortably and efficiently, and at a fraction of the cost of LRT (4 to 20 times less). SOURCE: http://www.itdp.org/index.php/microsite/brt_planning_guide/

The price of fuel always fluccuates, it's been so since the 1950s. Right now the cost of oil in Toronto is a mere 98.7 cents per litre. We're not to use that as a negative against bus transit which last I checked comprises 100% of Mississauaga Transit's fleet and operations as well 87% of the TTC's. Buses are perpetually the unsung heroes of mass transit despite not being prone to random blackouts and line closures like some other modes. If we invest in ways to make their viable more palatable to the masses, the masses will come in droves to ride aboard them.

Furthermore, why do you assume that steps aren't proactively being made to outpace our dependency on diesel to fuel buses?

British Columbia right now is developing a hydrogen bus fleet that will be even more energy efficient with an even longer shelf-life than hybrid electric. Why can't Toronto be innovative in this regard as well? Now that the newness of CNG technology was worn off prices for these vehicles are nearing parity with hybrid electric so it'd be very affordable for Toronto and environs to consider it, surely ahead of trams it cannot afford, delaying delivery times to start serving the transit using public.

Studies show that composite average costs per mile to operate a standard bus actually goes down over time with miles per year estimates of 10,000 = 62.0 cents; 15,000 = 52.2 cents; 20,000 = 47.7 cents. So by the 20,000 mileage mark buses can average costs per day x 365 days of $4,303 - $6,763. To use American statistics, Energy Information Administration on June 26, 2009, stated that the amount of fuel comsumed annually by public transit buses is peanuts compared to amount of fuel its usage has saved. The diesel chugged by 480,000 school buses that each carry an average of 54 students per bus produced a total annual car fuel COST savings by students riding school buses of $8,243,039,841 and a total U. S. savings in fuel cost per year of $6,097,028,413. Now you might say that such results could be duplicated by mass rail transit. However rail transit is very expensive to implement, operate and modernize as the system starts to age.

Which leads finally to this point that everyone I've debated with thus far can't seem to grasp. Evidence suggests that BRT can offer overall cost savings, despite its higher operating costs over all but the lowest range of capacity. Given that LRV incurs higher energy cost since it is larger and is more prone to failure, even when the driver's salary is about same the evidence demonstrates that BRT can cost as low as $90 versus $250 for LRT in daily O & M costs. And BRT can cover 10 times the surface area, meaning more people become dependent on the service over LRT which is limited to a set number of kilometre down select corridors that people from afar must transfer onto. Just thought I'd give some balance to the egregiously lop-sided LRT v. BRT debate.

First off, Hybrid buses cost $725,000 while standard are at $425,000 give or take a few $1,000's depending on the size of the order and for who. This is for 40' buses. 60' is $725,000 to $1m each. You better check your figures and sources.

Buses are only lasting 12 years now, not the 20+ as in the past for various reasons.

Cost of a driver is the driving factor for LRT over BRT.

Look at what the US is paying for their LRT's and none come close to $5m on small orders, more like $4m that can last from 35-50 years.

It cost MT $105/hr to put a bus on the road.

The BCA for Hurontario St is going to call for 5,000 riders from a single point. Math said using 75 riders for peak load for artic requires 44 buses alone operating every 1.4 minutes. Considering the route is 23km long, you need 114 buses to service the route with no bunching or delays. Math for LRT said you need 21 single cars every 2.33 minutes with 45 for the full route. That 69 less drivers to carry the same load as a BRT. Going to duel car you can cut the number of drivers more and have a max 5 minute headway.

You need 240kw/hr to move an LRT. You get 4km/Lt for a bus. Do the math of 23/4 X $ vs. 240 x $ for 1 hour.

CNG is a dead issue in Canada.

Hydrogen is still unproven at this time and until it is, not a factor.

A School Bus and a transit bus are 2 different cost factor and cannot be use as comparison numbers.

Check with ATPA as to cost per mile to carry a rider and you will see LRT is lower than buses.

BRT will work where ridership number cannot be justify for LRT in the first place.

If you want people to use transit here now, you cannot pack them in as sardines like you find around the world.

Oil is going up, when and how much is the question that is unknown at this time. I'm going out and saying by 2030 we will be looking at close to $3 a liter for fuel if not more. It coming like an express train. We had our first taste not long ago.
 
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Can I just say that I'm happy to hear that LRT is the preferred option despite drum118 saying it wasn't not long ago. *phew*
 
Quick question....who will operate the LRT? MT? BT? some new Peel T? or GO/Metrolinx.....it doesn't matter to me but I assume it will be one long continuous line without the need for a second fare when you cross the "border" in either direction.
 
Ooh I hope it's Peel-T...I like the sound of that. Rolls off the tongue...and yet sounds dirty for some reason. Peel-T.
 
Quick question....who will operate the LRT? MT? BT? some new Peel T? or GO/Metrolinx.....it doesn't matter to me but I assume it will be one long continuous line without the need for a second fare when you cross the "border" in either direction.

Kind of irrelevant, as Mississauga Transit and Brampton Transit accept each other's transfers.
 
It's a good question. Can you imagine Hurontario LRVs in nasty orange livery? Ew.
 
Kind of irrelevant, as Mississauga Transit and Brampton Transit accept each other's transfers.

Live a day and learn something new!! Guess I have never used BT to cross the border so did not realize this.......fare intergration!!!!

Thanks....it does make my question irrelevant!!!!
 
The orange livery (while acceptable as a stripe on otherwise plain white buses) and a (rare, these days) simple logo is fine, it wouldn't work well as a colour scheme for LRT. Though it'd be worse if it was in the Region of Peel's old colours: yellow, orange, brown.

Er, come to think of it, that's Buffalo's old colours:
3783362709_3d95099b0a.jpg

(Now, it's a silver and blue scheme)

An orange and blue combo (orange for Mississauga, blue one-half of BT's colours, and the corporate colour for both municipalities and the region) could work.
 
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Live a day and learn something new!! Guess I have never used BT to cross the border so did not realize this.......fare intergration!!!!

Thanks....it does make my question irrelevant!!!!

Brampton Transit, and Mississauga Transit have been accepting each other's transfer for at least a couple of decades.
 
You could get from York Region to Hamilton on a single fare by trading transfers at the border. It will take you eight hours, but it can be done!
 

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