[denfromoakvillemilton]

At the rate we are on currently the DRL will open around 2025 or 2026, at which the King and Roncasvalles streetcar services will likely be eliminated as they have been replaced with a subway service. (maybe even broadview) This will free up a ton of streetcars to use on other lines which will almost certainly be feeling the weight of 100,000 more people living in the downtown core than today. plus you can add the Queens Quay Streetcar extension, possibly the Portlands extension at that point, and a couple more extensions like maybe the St. Clair streetcar being brought out to Jane, and you have a lot of the extra streetcars being used up. Any extra can be put in storage and saved for a time when they are inevitably needed for service increases to meet demand moving into the 2030's.

We need an open DRL by 2020 at worst. We have to have something on paper by the end of the year and begin construction in March 2014

 

[innsertnamehere]

I completely agree, (we really need it yesterday) but we have to live within the realms of reality here, and in those realms the DRL gets funded through the revenue tools, with EA completion sometime in 2015 and completion 10-11 years later. If we are lucky they may be able to compress the time schedule and get completion by 2023 at the earliest, but reality is that 2025 or 2026 is more likely. That is of course if the transit tax passes, which it very well might not. If it fails, I think we will be lucky to get a DRL before 2030.

 

[rbt]

Another thing is if a DRL opens then one of those routes will probably drop the streetcar line so they'll be an over abundance of streetcars. Unless a DRL opens in 2045 when the new streetcars would be retiring anyway.

That seems very unlikely given the DRL designs I've seen. The DRL (particularly the version where it hits Exhibition place as a Union Station relief line) doesn't pretend to service the west at all, and is a lousy replacement for local service in the East.

At best if another 3 stops were added to the DRL then you can kill off a chunk of King East (Church to Broadview station; bus service would be required on Broadview) but the various Portlands lines feeding into a local DRL station would experience a bump.

If realestate construction (condos or rentals) continue at half the rate they have been, the Portlands will have growing neighbourhoods before the DRL is open and East Bayfront will be itching to get their line in place if it hasn't been built.

 

[dunkalunk]

Another thing is if a DRL opens then one of those routes will probably drop the streetcar line so they'll be an over abundance of streetcars. Unless a DRL opens in 2045 when the new streetcars would be retiring anyway.

The streetcar should be providing local service while the subway should be providing express, regardless of what the stop spacing is on the B-D or Yonge lines. The streetcar is not going anywhere.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The DRL (particularly the version where it hits Exhibition place as a Union Station relief line) doesn't pretend to service the west at all, and is a lousy replacement for local service in the East.

Exhibition is already covered with a train station in the east/west direction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The streetcar should be providing local service while the subway should be providing express, regardless of what the stop spacing is on the B-D or Yonge lines. The streetcar is not going anywhere.

The ridership simply won't exist on King if a DRL is constructed like suggested in the TTC ridership document. I would advise that the Queen streetcar be kept (Many would probably want both gone) but the King and Roncasvalles (and maybe even Broadview) streetcars simply will be too empty to be running 30 meter long streetcars. The demand could easily be met with 15-20 minute frequencies, in which case I think most riders would prefer a 5 minute bus service instead.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The ridership simply won't exist on King if a DRL is constructed like suggested in the TTC ridership document. I would advise that the Queen streetcar be kept (Many would probably want both gone) but the King and Roncasvalles (and maybe even Broadview) streetcars simply will be too empty to be running 30 meter long streetcars. The demand could easily be met with 15-20 minute frequencies, in which case I think most riders would prefer a 5 minute bus service instead.

I would extend the street car along Kingston rd in scarborough if the DRL would hurt ridership.

 

[rbt]

Exhibition is already covered with a train station in the east/west direction.

Right. With trains going to Union Station; to be considered over capacity by 2020 without an overhaul far larger than currently underway.

That is why Metrolinx proposed taking people off trains going to Union and putting them onto the DRL at some point west of Union Station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I completely agree, (we really need it yesterday) but we have to live within the realms of reality here, and in those realms the DRL gets funded through the revenue tools, with EA completion sometime in 2015 and completion 10-11 years later. If we are lucky they may be able to compress the time schedule and get completion by 2023 at the earliest, but reality is that 2025 or 2026 is more likely. That is of course if the transit tax passes, which it very well might not. If it fails, I think we will be lucky to get a DRL before 2030.

2030? You're really stretching the timeline. I'd say 2022 is a good estimation for when it will open. Maybe 2020 if we spend a tad more to have multiple sections built at once.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The ridership simply won't exist on King if a DRL is constructed like suggested in the TTC ridership document. I would advise that the Queen streetcar be kept (Many would probably want both gone) but the King and Roncasvalles (and maybe even Broadview) streetcars simply will be too empty to be running 30 meter long streetcars. The demand could easily be met with 15-20 minute frequencies, in which case I think most riders would prefer a 5 minute bus service instead.

Unless the stops on the DRL are <600m apart, I think it's going to need some kind of local service. I'd opt for trolley busses on king and the proposed streetcar ROW on Queen. And if signal priority is used, Queen could provide RT service from the west end, straight into downtown.

 

[GenerationW]

We need an open DRL by 2020 at worst. We have to have something on paper by the end of the year and begin construction in March 2014

Nine months from now?? No chance of that with no E.A., no funding, and two studies still ongoing (one of them just starting).

The streetcar should be providing local service while the subway should be providing express, regardless of what the stop spacing is on the B-D or Yonge lines. The streetcar is not going anywhere.

It's been speculated stop spacing for the downtown portion of the DRL will be similar to B-D, so assuming a King alignment, it will be interesting to see what they do with the King streetcar.

 

[rbt]

2030? You're really stretching the timeline. I'd say 2022 is a good estimation for when it will open. Maybe 2020 if we spend a tad more to have multiple sections built at once.

I've heard nothing about Metrolinx borrowing funds (their request for funding tools did not include it) which means we're looking at a pay as you go type thing. If Spring 2014 has revenue tools like sales tax in the budget, Metrolinx won't get actual money to spend until summer 2015.

Small shovel ready projects will get funding first, such as the Mississauga LRT and a start of GO electrification.

Yonge will get TBMs first. They'll have the objective to tender the line before the 2015 election with annual payments of $500M (1/4th Metrolinx's budget, another 1/4th goes to municipalities). Doing Yonge first makes cancelling the revenue tools much harder. Yonge may just be an underground train yard until the DRL opens but it will almost certainly get built first.

Hudak will have no issues cancelling the DRL. He would take a bit political hit cancelling Yonge so Yonge must go first or the entire Big Move will be at risk.


DRL EA will begin immediately before the 2015 election. It will take 4 years from EA start to create a Design+Build tender. DRL construction begins in late 2019 and will take 5 years from that date much of which will be the financial district station(s).

The interchange between King/Union/St. Andrew will take a long time because simultaneous closures of University, Bay, Yonge, and PATH is not an option.

This lines up well with revenue. Metrolinx can spend $12B by end of 2024 with $2B/year in revenue. Yonge + DRL will take half of that and cause political or budget pains if completed any faster.

 

[Platform 27]

I've heard nothing about Metrolinx borrowing funds (their request for funding tools did not include it) which means revenue tools will be a pay as you go type thing. If Spring 2014 has revenue tools like sales tax in the budget, Metrolinx won't get actual money to spend until summer 2015.

Nope. From the full report (page 76):

6.4.10 Timing of Implementation

It is recognized that implementation of the recommended tools is dependent on the legislative process for the Province of Ontario. In that context, it is important to keep in mind that the GTHA faces a pressing need to recover from a large backlog of deferred transportation infrastructure investment. During the stakeholder consultation process, many expressed the view that it is urgent to catch up through smart, significant investments. Through dedicated revenue streams that could become available as early as 2014, the region would be able to break out of a history of incremental on-again, off-again system expansion of its transit and transportation system. Immediate, dedicated revenues will ensure that project implementation progress can begin immediately, and some projects can be accelerated to achieve results and relief for GTHA commuters.

RECOMMENDATION 23:
It is recommended that the investment tools be implemented as soon as practical. Surplus revenue in any given year is to be retained in the Transportation Trust Fund outlined in Recommendation 4 and may only be available for use for future expenditures in subsequent years. Revenue from the investment tools may be used to service long-term debt to finance transit and transportation infrastructure.

 

[rbt]

Nope. From the full report (page 76):

Thank-you for digging that out; read the document but failed to absorb that information. That should cut 18 months off the total and gets DRL into the 2022 range. GTAA never has problems selling bonds so Metrolinx shouldn't either.

So the longest time points are going to be creating a Design+Build tender (Metrolinx seems to like these) and construction time for something downtown. IMO, doing anything high quality downtown will have a very long construction period.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

2030? You're really stretching the timeline. I'd say 2022 is a good estimation for when it will open. Maybe 2020 if we spend a tad more to have multiple sections built at once.

Nine months from now?? No chance of that with no E.A., no funding, and two studies still ongoing (one of them just starting).

It's been speculated stop spacing for the downtown portion of the DRL will be similar to B-D, so assuming a King alignment, it will be interesting to see what they do with the King streetcar.

These two posts are wildly different. The DRL needs to start now. I was saying what should happen not what will happen. Tiger the province and city are not on the same page so sadly 2020 is not an option?