News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 9.7K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 41K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.5K     0 

@diminutive

I'm not too sure that HSR will be seen as just an investment for the rich. What makes you think that? I think that perception comes down to fares. If the fares are a little bit more than VIA today? It's not going to generate a perception of just being for the "rich". On the other hand, if fares are set anything like how it was for UPE and if the government makes substantial program cuts elsewhere to fund this, then I agree with you, that there will be quite a lot of backlash and a view that this is for the "rich".

I think a bigger issue will be the backlash from the airlines funding a $1 billion per year in federal airport rents revenue only to have the government invest massively in a competitor. And to then subsidize said competitor. It won't fly politically in my opinion. Especially when the HSR price tag is announced while airlines announce layoffs as well.

VIA Fast is so much more politically palatable, that HSR is unlikely to happen in the next few decades.

I get where @MisterF is coming from. And I support that desire for better rail infrastructure. But I don't think aiming to kill inter-regional air traffic will really fly, as the policy underpinning. Primarily because unlike Europe, users here pay for the bulk of airport infrastructure. European governments on the other hand, subsidize all kinds of infrastructure, not just rail.
 
Like I've said earlier, you'll see a lot of direct o/d traffic move to rail. Even without HSR. You just a service that is reasonably fast downtown-to-downtown with a reasonable fare and a regular (hourly during the day) schedule. And I've also said, you'll see the airlines cut shoulder schedules. But I'm not inclined to believe that you'll see 37 flights go down to half a dozen. Even with HSR. For a few reasons. First, all rail building is focused on downtown-to-downtown travel. Merely having to transfer at Union, will kill a lot of the time savings and convenience of using long distance rail to get to Pearson. Second, is scheduling. Air Canada runs hourly daytime schedules to Ottawa and Montreal because it provides options to business travellers transfering to long-haul. You will not see this change. Unless you can get rail that's time-competitive to Pearson and has a similar schedule to air service today. How much would it cost to get that kind of rail service? Finally, there's cost. Air France is allowed to put a train between Paris and London and make money selling tickets. If we don't allow that for AC, why would they change their business model? And if that rail ticket costs nearly as much as air fare, it's far more efficient for the airline to have the customer processed in Ottawa or Montreal and shuttled by air to Pearson.

Now, none of that means that rail won't steal a good chunk between Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal and particularly Ottawa-Montreal. I can see most o/d traffic moving to rail. I think Porter's business case for Ottawa and Montreal will be dramatically diminished. They'll have to become more focused on the US and Northern Ontario.

One huge issue, that you forget about too is cost. More specifically, who bears the cost. From a govermental perspective, it's a no-brainer to expand an airport, because the government isn't paying for it! The passengers pay for airport development and expansions. Rail on the other hand, means billions in government expenditure, and the real risk that profits might not materialize and subsidies will be needed to maintain service.
I don't know why you assume that a transfer would be necessary at Union. Union is a through station, not a terminus. A train going to Pearson could stop there and then keep going, getting from downtown Montreal to Pearson in around 2:40. That's well within the travel times of air-rail partnership connections in other countries. As for frequencies, hourly or better trains (33 per day in the case of Ottawa) is what was projected in the 1995 feasibility study. If only a third of them go directly to Pearson, that would, again, be consistent with the frequencies offered by other air-rail partnership trips. There's no way that airlines could keep hourly flights going with so many people switching to trains. In the 90s Air Canada themselves estimated that they'd lose close to half their Corridor business to HSR.

Yes, high speed rail would mean billions in government investments. But as I said before, it also means less money put into highway expansion, decreased congestion costs, savings for policing and collisions, less pollution, and increased economic activity from induced trips and increased interconnection between cities.

Good luck selling that message and trying to form government. No party is going to win running on a platform that tells northern Ontario that no infrastructure spending is warranted in their direction. That freeway to Sudbury is as valuable to them as the HSR you want in Southern Ontario. And it's simply potlitically unfeasible to push deliberate spending restrictions on rural areas to boost spending on inter-city rail that runs through their backyards. It's just not going to fly. The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can work around it. This is not just for HSR. Goes for all the urban transit we want too.
The residents of Whistler, BC accepted it just fine. They didn't build a freeway to Whister, they built a cheaper Scandinavian style 2+1 highway. And that highway is significantly busier than Highway 69. I didn't say anything about "no infrastructure spending" in northern Ontario, so that's a straw man. Yes, the freeway is very valuable to Sudbury residents but something like what they built to Whistler would have been just as valuable. Same with non-road based solutions, like having rail instead of freeways like in Australia (their rail and freeway networks are basically the reverse of ours). And let's be honest - 160,000 people in greater Sudbury don't warrant the same infrastructure investment as a million people in London and Kitchener.

Despite their infrastructure choices, politicians in Scandinavia, British Columbia and Australia are still getting elected. Insisting on a freeway to Sudbury is a bit like insisting on a subway on St. Clair. Once you start building it the residents won't accept anything less...but that doesn't mean that better options aren't available.

Paying for a study or even contributing to a $4 billion rail plan is one thing. Contributing to a $20 billion HSR plan is another matter entirely. And the private sector has never said they'll sign up for that. They'll sign up to build it and run it. They won't sign up to finance it. And that's the sticking point. No government is going to want to fund the $16 billion between VIA's current proposal and full HSR. Especially not when that $16 billion buys them so much public transit throughout the country. I'm not even sure, the public would support that. Especially when they know that it's $16 billion less for everything else. This is why I fully agree with VIA's CEO pushing an incremental approach. Far easier to sell HSR when the public is already relying on regular train service. It just sucks that his incremental approach may mean it's 20-30 years before we see real HSR.
Actually the private sector did say that they'd sign up for that, proposing to partially pay for the capital cost. That's what the Lynx proposal was looking to do 25 years ago, which had the backing of half a dozen corporations plus the banks. It was the government that didn't pursue it, not the private sector. The private sector would be part of VIA's proposal as well. Yes, VIA is now pushing an incremental approach out of pragmatism. And with Trudeau in power it actually seems somewhat likely to happen. But VIA was advocating for full HSR until fairly recently.

Only when subsidized and when gas prices are very high. What would fares be in Spain when you include all construction costs (like we would have to)? And how would that compete in a country where gas is $1/L and free parking is still available in many places?
You might want to ask the authors of the feasibility studies that have all shown that HSR in the corridor is viable.

I would love to have HSR. Honestly, would love to have it. And I'd be cheering if Trudeau announced it tomorrow. However, I've just comes to see less of a business case for it, when the difference in cost (between VIA Fast and full HSR) is so huge and opportunity cost is even bigger. For $20 billion, you could have VIA FAST, the DRL, every LRT planned in Toronto and GO RER. And honestly, VIA Fast is good enough. 2.5 hrs Toronto-Ottawa downtown-to-downtown is competitive with air from Pearson and the Island. 3.5 hrs Toronto-Montreal is only slightly slower than downtown-to-downtown from Pearson. And just 1 hr slower than Porter. Depending on cost, there will be enough traffic swayed.

I am going to bet that VIA Fast will be announced in the new year (by March) and that the feds will call it "high speed" because it's faster than what's there today.
If that happens I'd be all in favour of it. Realistically, a more modest rail expansion is much more likely to happen in the near term. The only true high speed rail option that's looking remotely likely right now is the one to London. Both the VIA proposal and the London HSR, along with GO RER, would build momentum for HSR to Montreal at some point in the future.
 
@MisterF

Since this is the TPIA thread let's bring the discussion back to the topic at hand (would love to continue this hsr discussion elsewhere).

Airport expansion is funded through airport development fees. From the airport's perspective, HSR would be good because it slows capacity demand, allowing fee reductions or delaying hikes. Problem is the airport authority can't bank on changing the airport development plan until there's real progress on HSR. So if you're Pearson, you're not going to put off airport expansion until the government firmly commits to HSR.

One thing completely missed in this discussion is airspace capacity. Europe pushed HSR in no small part because European airspace is very congested. It's also why the Acela Express was pushed in the BosWash corridor. Our corridor is busy, but not quite like what the Europeans face.

The issue that's relevant in this thread is who pays for what. Users pay for airports. Government pays for rail. As long as this is the setup, it's really hard for airports to put off expansion hoping for the government to spend billions on rail.
 
Toronto Pearson welcomed it's 40 millionth passenger today

Also a few hints on near-term plans.

"The GTAA is already talking to the airlines about potentially adding another pier to the east side of Terminal 1, possibly within three or four years. It would likely cost in the range of $500 million to $650 million. Pearson is also working with nine other Southwestern Ontario airports between Kingston and Windsor to look at what role each will play. New York, London and Paris all have a network of airports designed to accommodate different markets. If Pearson remains the region’s international gateway, others could take on other niches such as general aviation, business travel or flight training."

"[Passengers] also need to connect on the ground. Only five to 10 per cent of Pearson travellers take transit to the airport. Eng expects that will grow as ridership on the Union Pearson Express (UPX) train matures, but 41 per cent of Heathrow visitors take transit; 33 per cent in Frankfurt.
That’s why Pearson is planning a multi-modal hub, a kind of Union Station West, to connect travellers and the 245,000 people who work in the airport employment zone, including about 40,000 at the airport."

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpr...son-airport-charting-path-to-fly-even-higher/
 
Which transit services could theoretically use this multi-modal hub?

- Eglinton LRT?
- Finch LRT?
- High speed rail?
 
^And lots of bus routes I'm sure.

@MisterF

Since this is the TPIA thread let's bring the discussion back to the topic at hand (would love to continue this hsr discussion elsewhere).

Airport expansion is funded through airport development fees. From the airport's perspective, HSR would be good because it slows capacity demand, allowing fee reductions or delaying hikes. Problem is the airport authority can't bank on changing the airport development plan until there's real progress on HSR. So if you're Pearson, you're not going to put off airport expansion until the government firmly commits to HSR.

One thing completely missed in this discussion is airspace capacity. Europe pushed HSR in no small part because European airspace is very congested. It's also why the Acela Express was pushed in the BosWash corridor. Our corridor is busy, but not quite like what the Europeans face.

The issue that's relevant in this thread is who pays for what. Users pay for airports. Government pays for rail. As long as this is the setup, it's really hard for airports to put off expansion hoping for the government to spend billions on rail.
Yes of course the way the airlines and airport authorities make their plans is influenced by government policy, which makes total sense. No government has committed to high speed rail to Montreal so airport plans will continue to be based on its absence. Of course, airport development plans are being updated all the time and would no doubt be updated to respond to any significant investment into rail. They're already responding to all the transit expansion in the GTA by building a multimodal transit terminal, as rbt mentioned.

I was curious about how our corridor compares with others so I did some browsing. Pearson is the 15th busiest airport in the world based on number of flights. Wikipedia also has a table showing busiest city pairs based on number of flights. Although Toronto isn't there, the table appears to be wildly incomplete (not entirely surprising on Wikipedia). The source is quicktrip.com and it seems like someone just entered a bunch of city pairs and put the data into Wikipedia. Here's what I found for number of flights tomorrow on some key routes.

Sao Paulo-Rio: 276
Sydney-Melbourne: 188
New York-Chicago: 176
Toronto-Montreal: 110
Shanghai-Beijing: 104
London-Edinburgh: 94 (planning high speed rail)
Toronto-Ottawa: 80
Madrid-Barcelona: 50

You can't really draw a whole lot of conclusions from that obviously, but the Toronto-Montreal route has more planes in the air than you might think.
 
Last edited:
@MisterF

I count 25 each way on Toronto-Ottawa from Flight Aware from YYZ and YTZ. So that 80 number seems a bit high. I'd also add that context matters. A porter 80 seater is not the same indication of demand/capacity as a 200 seat A321. Nor are airspace congestion issues equal. Spain has major cities all over the places and flights going in all directions. This creates some very complex and congested airspace. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal isn't as congested airspace and there are nice linear corridors that barely impinged by other traffic. Lastly, Pearson is the 15th busiest airport in the world mostly because of trans-border and international traffic. Not because of Toront0-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal flights. You can drop those entirely and Pearson might drop 1-2 spots on the list at most.

Lastly, you missed my point.
In Europe, it was much easier to tie air and rail development together because the governments paid for both and therefore investment in rail was viewed as a direct alternative to airport expansion. In Canada, airport users pay for airport development through their fees. So as far as the government is concerned, airport expansion is free. And not just free but profitable. The feds collect $200 million in rents from the major airports (and a good chunk of that from Pearson) annually. Contrast that to rail where the feds would have to pay tens of billions to develop HSR with extremely long pay off period from profits on there. So in Canada, the government has a choice between free airport expansion or a decade long rail project costing tens of billions. Which do you think they'll pick? This is why I see VIA Fast as likely, and HSR as less likely. But who knows....may be Trudeau will do even less, like governments before him!

More to the point of this thread. HSR will basically have no net impact on Pearson. If all Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal flights were dropped tomorrow, airlines would find other destinations for those airplanes and landing slots, making this discussion all but irrelevant.
 
@MisterF

I count 25 each way on Toronto-Ottawa from Flight Aware from YYZ and YTZ.

That seems low. From their respective booking screens on Dec 17th (both portions) YYZ/YTZ to YOW:

Air Canada: 17 each way (YYZ)
WestJet: 9 each way (YYZ)
Porter: 12 each way (YTZ)

So that's 76 from the 3 main carriers on that date. Google flights confirms nobody else (mainstream at least) schedules that trip direct.

Number of trips seems to vary a bit by day. For example Air Canada on the 18th only has 16 flights each way. It wouldn't surprise me if some random day of the year had a couple additional trips.
 
That seems low. From their respective booking screens on Dec 17th (both portions) YYZ/YTZ to YOW:

Air Canada: 17 each way (YYZ)
WestJet: 9 each way (YYZ)
Porter: 12 each way (YTZ)

So that's 76 from the 3 main carriers on that date. Google flights confirms nobody else (mainstream at least) schedules that trip direct.

Number of trips seems to vary a bit by day. For example Air Canada on the 18th only has 16 flights each way. It wouldn't surprise me if some random day of the year had a couple additional trips.
Air canada's website also says they have "up to 30 daily flights" between YUL and YTZ
 
My mistake actually. I forgot to count Westjet with Flightaware. In any event, this discussion of the number of flights is a red herring. The airport authority is not going to be spending billions on HSR. The government will do that. And the driving concern will be downtown-to-downtown travel. Feeding Pearson will be a distant secondary. The airport authority would have to be incompetent to forestall expansion in the vague hope that HSR will happen since HSR will:

-likely not reduce overall demand at the airport. Airlines will simply use freed up slots and aircraft to launch new services.
-not dramatically reduce traffic at the airport since the vast, vast majority of flights are not serving Ottawa and Montreal.
-not be in service for at least a decade after any initial announcement.

I really don't see the point of having an endless discussion on HSR in the Pearson airport thread when the impact of HSR on Pearson will be minimal at best. Even if 300+ km/h HSR does happen, the airport won't stop growing in the intervening decade or more it will take to construct. Nor will the airport forestall any expansion since those 50-80 slots will simply be taken up by the airlines to launch new services (especially to the US) over time. At best, we're talking about marginally delaying expansion for a few years.
 
@MisterF

I count 25 each way on Toronto-Ottawa from Flight Aware from YYZ and YTZ. So that 80 number seems a bit high. I'd also add that context matters. A porter 80 seater is not the same indication of demand/capacity as a 200 seat A321. Nor are airspace congestion issues equal. Spain has major cities all over the places and flights going in all directions. This creates some very complex and congested airspace. Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal isn't as congested airspace and there are nice linear corridors that barely impinged by other traffic. Lastly, Pearson is the 15th busiest airport in the world mostly because of trans-border and international traffic. Not because of Toront0-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal flights. You can drop those entirely and Pearson might drop 1-2 spots on the list at most.
That was a response to your post about congestion. Congestion in the air comes from planes, not passengers. An 80 seat jet contributes as much as a 400 seat jet. Pearson has a lot of smaller jets serving routes that don't justify jumbos, so it has as much congestion as airports serving more passengers. Yes Europe likely has a higher density of routes, but Toronto-Montreal has a larger number of flights than pretty much any city pair in Europe.

Lastly, you missed my point.
In Europe, it was much easier to tie air and rail development together because the governments paid for both and therefore investment in rail was viewed as a direct alternative to airport expansion. In Canada, airport users pay for airport development through their fees. So as far as the government is concerned, airport expansion is free. And not just free but profitable. The feds collect $200 million in rents from the major airports (and a good chunk of that from Pearson) annually. Contrast that to rail where the feds would have to pay tens of billions to develop HSR with extremely long pay off period from profits on there. So in Canada, the government has a choice between free airport expansion or a decade long rail project costing tens of billions. Which do you think they'll pick? This is why I see VIA Fast as likely, and HSR as less likely. But who knows....may be Trudeau will do even less, like governments before him!

More to the point of this thread. HSR will basically have no net impact on Pearson. If all Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal flights were dropped tomorrow, airlines would find other destinations for those airplanes and landing slots, making this discussion all but irrelevant.
No, I got your point and responded to it. I've outlined why a system that relies too much on flying and driving has costs that don't get accounted for when you're only looking at rail profits and airport rents. Airport expansion is free the same way that free parking is free. It's not really.

My mistake actually. I forgot to count Westjet with Flightaware. In any event, this discussion of the number of flights is a red herring. The airport authority is not going to be spending billions on HSR. The government will do that. And the driving concern will be downtown-to-downtown travel. Feeding Pearson will be a distant secondary. The airport authority would have to be incompetent to forestall expansion in the vague hope that HSR will happen since HSR will:

-likely not reduce overall demand at the airport. Airlines will simply use freed up slots and aircraft to launch new services.
-not dramatically reduce traffic at the airport since the vast, vast majority of flights are not serving Ottawa and Montreal.
-not be in service for at least a decade after any initial announcement.

I really don't see the point of having an endless discussion on HSR in the Pearson airport thread when the impact of HSR on Pearson will be minimal at best. Even if 300+ km/h HSR does happen, the airport won't stop growing in the intervening decade or more it will take to construct. Nor will the airport forestall any expansion since those 50-80 slots will simply be taken up by the airlines to launch new services (especially to the US) over time. At best, we're talking about marginally delaying expansion for a few years.
It's not a red herring. You mentioned air congestion and I responded to it by showing that congestion on potential HSR routes is higher than you think.

Nobody's arguing for airport authorities to forestall expansion based on vague promises so I'm not sure why you keep repeating that. But if an HSR system (or even VIA Fast) were built, of course airport authorities would take that into account in their expansion plans. As I said before, even if only 10% of Pearson's traffic is to other W-C corridor cities, that's still a significant reduction if they get largely replaced by trains. And it's more than 50-80 slots. It's ~80 to Ottawa alone and 110 to Montreal, plus whatever number of flights go to cities like London and Kingston. Yes of course feeding Pearson would be secondary to feeding downtown. But it would still be an important role for HSR.

Finally, if those slots being taken by Corridor routes are getting in the way of other services that there's demand for, all the more reason to replace them with another mode. Longer distance travel is what airports should be for, not trips of a few hundred kilometres.
 
@MisterF

I do think this discussions is a red herring. Pray tell what relevance does HSR have to Pearson airport. You've tried hard to argue that HSR is relevant because it can be an alternative to expansion at Pearson. But that's not really true. Other than Ottawa and Montreal, there really aren't that many Corridor flight. Even if HSR comes, a significant chunk of corridor flights are replaced, expansion at Pearson won't be forestalled. That's my point. This is why it's a red herring in this thread.

Now if you were talking about Ottawa and (to a lesser extent) Montreal, where the proportion of corridor flights is much higher, than HSR forestalling expansion is a relevant discussion. Not so for TPIA.
 
@MisterF

I do think this discussions is a red herring. Pray tell what relevance does HSR have to Pearson airport. You've tried hard to argue that HSR is relevant because it can be an alternative to expansion at Pearson. But that's not really true. Other than Ottawa and Montreal, there really aren't that many Corridor flight. Even if HSR comes, a significant chunk of corridor flights are replaced, expansion at Pearson won't be forestalled. That's my point. This is why it's a red herring in this thread.

Now if you were talking about Ottawa and (to a lesser extent) Montreal, where the proportion of corridor flights is much higher, than HSR forestalling expansion is a relevant discussion. Not so for TPIA.
Actually I brought up high speed rail in response to posts that were talking about expanding other airports in the region. And you bring up a good point that these airports would be more affected by HSR than Pearson would, the type that rely more on short haul flights and/or feeder flights to Pearson. Not only Ottawa and Montreal but also London, Waterloo, Billy Bishop, Quebec, Windsor, and Kingston. They would see much reduced traffic with HSR. And even a small reduction in flights at Pearson means less need for other airports to take pressure off.
 
@MisterF

Other airports in the region?

The only one that has a practical shot is Hamilton. And if that happened, again HSR would have zero relevance, because expansion would largely be focused on transborder or domestic long haul. Nobody is talking about serious expansion at London or Waterloo airports. And no expansion anywhere is focused on increasing flights in the Corridor. They're all focused on discounted domestic and transborder flights. Discounters aren't going to touch the TOM triangle where the oligopoly can bleed then dry on price. And kill them with frequency. Nor are discounters going to operate out of a high cost and very busy airport. Hence, the desire for a reliever airport.

You are mixing up the desire for cheaper airport capacity with desire for more corridor travel. That's not the case. It's desire for cheap capacity that can facilitate more long haul flights.

The Europeans have this too. HSR hasn't stopped low cost carriers from booming in Europe using secondary airports (like Hamilton would be).
 

Back
Top