They are, but that doesn't stop them from being on bike paths AND sidewalks.
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
the lemur
Senior Member
I've heard a lot of witless complaining about how the amount spent on the revitalization (and the overrun) is somehow to blame for people's confusion, like it was all an expensive prank and no one really has any control over where they drive, walk or bike.
And yes, traffic circles. Last time I went around the Square One roundabout I got honked at by a driver who wanted to get in, even though there are clearly yield signs all around and the rule is to yield to cars already in the circle. Sheesh.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Bill 173 has been replaced by Bill 31, which just received royal assent.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bi...&BillID=3057&detailPage=bills_detail_the_bill
Here's a summary report from the City of Ottawa
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=332336
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Napoleon
Active Member
The Keenan article was spot on. It doesn't take very much time sitting at Queen's Quay to figure out there's a problem. I'm somewhat disinclined to blame drivers as well. There are plenty of stupid drivers, but it wasn't until I sat and watched and saw how many made the same mistake, that I now 95% blame the design.
There's also a lot of discussion of drivers getting used to the change. That's very well and good for people that live and work in this area; however, some fraction of traffic will always be unfamiliar with any given area, and it's that traffic for which the design must be intuitive.
Right now, I know the subtlety with gentle transition from various shades of pavers to granite sounds and looks beautiful; however, on a rainy weekend like this past one, all that subtlety will be missed, and clear unmistakable markings, signals, and signs are a necessity.
There's also a lot of discussion of drivers getting used to the change. That's very well and good for people that live and work in this area; however, some fraction of traffic will always be unfamiliar with any given area, and it's that traffic for which the design must be intuitive.
Right now, I know the subtlety with gentle transition from various shades of pavers to granite sounds and looks beautiful; however, on a rainy weekend like this past one, all that subtlety will be missed, and clear unmistakable markings, signals, and signs are a necessity.
the lemur
Senior Member
Are there still webcams pointing at the street? Or maybe someone should drive up and down with a dashcam just to show what it's really like.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
So, Keenan is saying on Twitter that (a) yes, WT is has heard the concerns and have been formulating changes to clear up the confusion and (b) I infer he must be happy with the changes planned as he says he's going to do a follow-up column praising the response.
Tewder
Senior Member
Are you kidding me? I expect designers/planners to act competently, it's what they get paid for. I don't 'expect' the public to do so, and nor should the planners. Besides, why should users take responsibility for being confused in a confusing space? Planners had years to get this right and spent millions in endless studies. It's not enough to be dazzled by pretty plans, design has to function too.
And I reject your notions that effective design must be boring or that people should shut up and accept danger in the urban realm... but sure, let's continue to blame the users, how predictable a posture here! Human behaviour is malleable, but it needs to be directed and conditioned carefully.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
You are operating a vehicle weighting a ton or more - the user need to take all responsibility under the circumstances. Being confused is not an excuse. And if you think this space is "confusing", try the old towns of various cities. Ignorance and inability to handle the out of the ordinary doesn't cut it - and if one consistently couldn't handle that, they should rethink whether they really belong on the road.
By all means direct and condition - through use, education and enforcement. Rest assured, they won't be making the same mistake again. And if you really want to kiddie proof it, smack a 20-30 kph speed limit the moment you enter the stretch.
AoD
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
You can provide constructive feedback to Waterfront Toronto on their
We Want Your Feedback on the New Queens Quay
webpage, at this link.
Go to the bottom of the page and click on the Fill out this online form link.
We Want Your Feedback on the New Queens Quay
webpage, at this link.
Go to the bottom of the page and click on the Fill out this online form link.
and submit it.
Am I the only person who doesn't find QQ confusing? 
I'm not smarter than the average bear, but to me it is completely logical. Cars go in one place, streetcars in another and so on. EB and WB vehicles are on either side of the road.
I'm not smarter than the average bear, but to me it is completely logical. Cars go in one place, streetcars in another and so on. EB and WB vehicles are on either side of the road.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
PL: I think a lot of people operate on previous experience on the road instead of observation and signage (which few, if any really follow in detail) - that's why people have some many issues with curve balls like QQ.
AoD
AoD
Or maybe it's because I have been following the project closely and knew what to expect
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
There is that too - and recall the issues with Spadina LRT when it first opened as well. Drivers can't seem to handle that the streetcar ROW isn't always shared.
AoD
Tuscani01
Senior Member
I don't find it confusing at all either.
They still cant. Time and time again, a car ends up on the Spadina ROW at Spadina/Lakeshore.
They still cant. Time and time again, a car ends up on the Spadina ROW at Spadina/Lakeshore.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Not nearly as bad as it first opened - I think they ended up having to install barriers of some kind as a stop-gap elsewhere along the line.
AoD