AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Paving/surface treatment if I remember correctly. It was supposed to be a very colourful space.
AoD
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
Paving/surface treatment if I remember correctly. It was supposed to be a very colourful space.
AoD
Kitsune
Senior Member
I figure that parking lot makes a couple million every year, if they ever got rid of it they will have to replace that revenue somehow. I adding an exit to Rees or maybe Lake Shore would greatly ease the traffic jams.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
MetroMan
Senior Member
I've been told by someone at WT that something big has been going on behind the scenes to remedy the pedestrian/cyclist/car confusion on Queens Quay. They're waiting to get "all partners on board" before discussing publicly.
I don't know what it is exactly but my guess is that some traffic lights could be eliminated. 4 way stops would be far more useful and lend to everyone being more careful while pedestrians and cyclists wouldn't have to wait at a red light with no cars coming, leading to better adherence to rules where there are lights. I'd even argue for the elimination of all traffic lights with 4 way stop signs and flashing pedestrian crossovers instead.
Another improvement could be to introduce alternating one ways to discourage speeding and reduce overall traffic. There would be no end to end travel on Queens Quay which would become local traffic only.
Whatever it is, WT is aware of the issues and working on some big moves to fix the problems.
I don't know what it is exactly but my guess is that some traffic lights could be eliminated. 4 way stops would be far more useful and lend to everyone being more careful while pedestrians and cyclists wouldn't have to wait at a red light with no cars coming, leading to better adherence to rules where there are lights. I'd even argue for the elimination of all traffic lights with 4 way stop signs and flashing pedestrian crossovers instead.
Another improvement could be to introduce alternating one ways to discourage speeding and reduce overall traffic. There would be no end to end travel on Queens Quay which would become local traffic only.
Whatever it is, WT is aware of the issues and working on some big moves to fix the problems.
Perhaps they'll go back to making all of QQ one way. There was some whining when they did it at the start of construction, but it ended up working out pretty well. Given the amount of space available, one-way makes sense.
Some of the lights should also be on a sensor on an as-needed basis -- like the one at the beer store, and the one across from Shopper's. Both of those don't need to be red for cyclists/pedestrians 95% of the time. The one at the beer store certainly doesn't need to be red for cars either -- a sensor could trigger it when needed. The one at Shopper's is more convoluted for vehicles because of the streetcar turning and cars exiting from parking garages.
Some of the lights should also be on a sensor on an as-needed basis -- like the one at the beer store, and the one across from Shopper's. Both of those don't need to be red for cyclists/pedestrians 95% of the time. The one at the beer store certainly doesn't need to be red for cars either -- a sensor could trigger it when needed. The one at Shopper's is more convoluted for vehicles because of the streetcar turning and cars exiting from parking garages.
MetroMan
Senior Member
The principle reason why QQ ended up with so much confusion is because it deviated from the original plan, changes which had consequences not predicted one change at a time.
The green ROW is one good example. A grass corridor is very easy to understand as a no go zone for cars. Eliminating that had consequences that rolled out throughout the entire street. The visual separation was removed, creating confusion. It's not immediately clear without reading signs that cars aren't allowed in the ROW. To compound the problem, the more signs that are added, the more visual clutter there is and the longer it takes for a driver to understand where they need to go. If we can't go all the way, perhaps adding a green berm of bushes along the ROW and 1M barrier of grass at the end of the ROW at intersections could help achieve a similar effect.
Other such changes, some very subtle, made it so that the dutch design didn't work well with our north american rules. For example, in much of Europe, signs/lights are placed at the location where vehicles/pedestrians must stop — before the intersection. A red light at the end of the paved bike lane before the the York intersection would make it clear where to stop without using confusing blue boxes on the pavement that nobody understands. Instead, there's a traffic light 100 feet away where cyclists aren't yet looking and so they continue on until they reach the actual cross road.
Cobble stone roads for cars with alternating one ways would have had the effect of slowing traffic and improve attention to surroundings. Rumbling roads do make drivers slow down and do make them look around and drive more carefully.
All of these should be implemented to fix the issues on Queens Quay.
Finally, one missing visual cue is not something that was eliminated but something we have to wait for. The tree canopy over the bike lane will create the visual separation cueing pedestrians that they're entering another realm. It'll take about 3-5 years for those trees to fill up and form a canopy. Hopefully WT isn't forced to introduce gates or fences. This would ruin the intended effect of a wide open Queens Quay. Perhaps more benches, and maybe some temporary flower pots could be added in the interim.
The green ROW is one good example. A grass corridor is very easy to understand as a no go zone for cars. Eliminating that had consequences that rolled out throughout the entire street. The visual separation was removed, creating confusion. It's not immediately clear without reading signs that cars aren't allowed in the ROW. To compound the problem, the more signs that are added, the more visual clutter there is and the longer it takes for a driver to understand where they need to go. If we can't go all the way, perhaps adding a green berm of bushes along the ROW and 1M barrier of grass at the end of the ROW at intersections could help achieve a similar effect.
Other such changes, some very subtle, made it so that the dutch design didn't work well with our north american rules. For example, in much of Europe, signs/lights are placed at the location where vehicles/pedestrians must stop — before the intersection. A red light at the end of the paved bike lane before the the York intersection would make it clear where to stop without using confusing blue boxes on the pavement that nobody understands. Instead, there's a traffic light 100 feet away where cyclists aren't yet looking and so they continue on until they reach the actual cross road.
Cobble stone roads for cars with alternating one ways would have had the effect of slowing traffic and improve attention to surroundings. Rumbling roads do make drivers slow down and do make them look around and drive more carefully.
All of these should be implemented to fix the issues on Queens Quay.
Finally, one missing visual cue is not something that was eliminated but something we have to wait for. The tree canopy over the bike lane will create the visual separation cueing pedestrians that they're entering another realm. It'll take about 3-5 years for those trees to fill up and form a canopy. Hopefully WT isn't forced to introduce gates or fences. This would ruin the intended effect of a wide open Queens Quay. Perhaps more benches, and maybe some temporary flower pots could be added in the interim.
ttk77
Senior Member
That light at the beer store has to be one of the most ridiculous street light placements I've ever seen.
TransitBart
Senior Member
How about a little granite curb to separate the bikes from the streetcar ROW and the pedestrian ROW?
DSC
Superstar
It's mainly for the fire station.
ttk77
Senior Member
And if there's a fire, they aren't about to wait for a green light so really, it's useless
Miscreant
Senior Member
Yeah, I don't think a structure is permitted there because the SkyDome (yes) is a protected view on the waterfront. I could be wrong.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
We should have near-side traffic signals for pedestrians and bicyclist. The far-side traffic signals are too far and can be obscured by trucks and other tall vehicles.
It might be against the "rules", but putting in extra near-side traffic signals, in addition to the current required far-side traffic traffic signals (removing the visual signage clutter) may help at little.
It might be against the "rules", but putting in extra near-side traffic signals, in addition to the current required far-side traffic traffic signals (removing the visual signage clutter) may help at little.
smallspy
Senior Member
They don't need to wait. The light is configured (or is supposed to be configured - if it isn't than there is a far bigger problem here) to switch to green for them by the time they get to the intersection.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Kitsune
Senior Member
The light does not change fast enough for it to work. I've often seen the firetruck and ambulance out onto the ROW before the light changes.