[adma]

But the thing is, except during construction, the Greektown ditch was never *un*covered--unlike the early Yonge line N of Bloor--and why single out Greektown? Same thing happened to the Annex, Bloor West, and any stretch of B-D where there's a string of parking and parkettes behind the north-side-of-the-street strips. (NB: the Annex situation's camoflauged by the fact that infill housing was built along the ROW in the 1980s.)

All I'm saying is, imagine if the subway was uncovered. (Then again, the open stretches of the Yonge line haven't exactly been lethal to Rosedale, Duplex, et al.)

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Eglinton can lure riders, but so can Sheppard. If Sheppard was extended both ways, it'd lure riders from an assortment of Finch, Steeles, etc., routes, not to mention greatly increase transit's share of overall travel in the NW and NE quarters of the city. Travelling in a straight line takes longer when there's a much faster option elsewhere...no one's going to take the Bathurst bus from Steeles to Bloor when they can go "out of their way" and take the subway instead.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make though. No one doubts Sheppard can attract riders, its just that a straight line like Eglinton is not impeded by the low-density sprawl which usually occurs between concession roads. Land usage adjacent to Eglinton east of Brentcliffe and west of Black Creek is such that a subway could be ran above ground for alot less than tunneling. S-Bahn could also work better along Eglinton for veering into Pearson and possibly incorporating a section of Don Mills, saving billions on full length new lines for both. Someone along Bathurst would have a phethora of options whereby no one living north of Davenport would ever need the Bloor stop, inclusive of a station at Bathurst and Eglinton. Sheppard will forever be only relevent to NYC-STC linkage (WOULD YOU SERIOUSLY CONSIDER SENLAC, BATHURST N. AND FAYWOOD MORE IMPORTANT SUBWAYS TO HAVE THAN EGLINTON OR DRL?) meanwhile Eglinton long term could stretch from Morningside all the way into the airport and beyond, finally creating a real alternative to BD/GO for cross-city and inter-regional commuting.

Give me over $6 billion and I'll build a DRL that will benefit more people than anything else...

Good luck with that !

Don't have the time to touch on everything but ROW beats mixed trafficked bus routes any day of the week. Open ditch or elevated pathways SHOULD seriously be considered for portions of all future extensions sans Yonge North, or at the very least cut-and-cover only as funds become available. And lastly the interchange at Don Mills St would occur at platform level, one simply need walk across.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You're missing the point I'm trying to make though.......Sheppard will forever be only relevent to NYC-STC linkage (WOULD YOU SERIOUSLY CONSIDER SENLAC, BATHURST N. AND FAYWOOD MORE IMPORTANT SUBWAYS TO HAVE THAN EGLINTON OR DRL?) meanwhile Eglinton long term could stretch from Morningside all the way into the airport and beyond, finally creating a real alternative to BD/GO for cross-city and inter-regional commuting.

Your point is that Eglinton is better because it doesn't need to be run underground for its entire length, a technical fact I agree with...how does that make Sheppard extensions less viable? The cut and cover process could be quick and cheap if they didn't feel compelled to keep every intersection open to traffic for the entire duration of line's construction. Sheppard could be in a trench or at or above grade in places - it also does not need to be 100% tunnelled (who said it did?).

Sheppard is relevent because it's one of the busiest routes in the city (if the subway was removed, it'd be the single busiest surface route). Sheppard would take people across the city and there'd be a half dozen major nodes along the way. Eglinton is simply not superior to other potential routes for "cross-city and inter-regional" trips.

Is a Senlac stop more important than a DRL? Of course a full DRL or a very long Eglinton line would be better than a single 4km Sheppard extension, but it's a silly comparison - having one does not prevent the other.

 

[marcus_a_j]

With the exception of the VCC station (which planners in Vaughan/York Region/VIVA had extensive literature to support), there does not seem to be a mention of Transit Oriented Development (TOD) in this plan. I think this is a huge mistake, one that will forever dog the success of the extension. Development and transit need to be coordinated with each other, and the 407 station flies directly in the face of this core principle. Another core principle is creating attractive, save, and accessible stations. A station atop a highway fails to meet even a fraction of this requirement.

Vaughan OPA 620 attempts to create TOD around the Steeles West station. (I would provide a link but the website is not working now.) It has been approved by the City but has been appealed to the OMB by several parties. I think UPS is appealing based on their plans, and site plan approved, to expand their facility. The distribution centre is basically doubling in size. There are also plans for development on the NE corner of Jane/Steeles, pending the OPA 620 decisions. Regardless of what happens with that decision, there will still be a 3000 spot parking lot under the hydro corridor for commuters using the Steeles West station.

 

[MisterF]

Is a Senlac stop more important than a DRL? Of course a full DRL or a very long Eglinton line would be better than a single 4km Sheppard extension, but it's a silly comparison - having one does not prevent the other.

But a 6 km Pape-Union DRL would be better than a single 4 km Sheppard extension, IMO. I'd say it'd even be better than a completed Sheppard line all the way to STC.

Or the GO lines could be converted to regional rail, with subway-like frequencies where all the lines converge. It could eliminate the need for a DRL and be a lot more benefit than a Sheppard extension.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I said a useful complete new line would be better than than a simple extension.

GO improvements would not eliminate the need for a DRL.

 

[unimaginative2]

Yes, but the point that you guys are all missing is that MoveOntario2020 committed funding to every project that was on the books. It wasn't an either/or proposition. If Toronto had still been planning a Sheppard subway or a DRL, for that matter, it would have gotten funding. Unfortunately, just a few months before Toronto abandoned all plans to build new subways in favour of $6 billion worth of streetcars.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Sheppard could be in a trench or at or above grade in places - it also does not need to be 100% tunnelled (who said it did?).

Realistically the grade on Sheppard drops significantly east of Bayview whereby two-thirds of the current line could've been built above ground. The underground construction around the Don River alone accounted for a third of building costs. It's doubtful the TTC would give up the trend it's on now dispite the glaring reality that the rest of proposed line would go through low-density sprawl, highway and railway corridors.

Your point is that Eglinton is better because it doesn't need to be run underground for its entire length, a technical fact I agree with...how does that make Sheppard extensions less viable?

Eglinton's the poor man's Sheppard. While the purple line's condo-centric, hub to hub; Eglinton for the same cost to build Sheppard to STC would most likely cover more kms as cost/km is less, serving more commuters. Hence Don Mills-Brimley would be more like Yonge-Kennedy.

Sheppard is relevent because it's one of the busiest routes in the city (if the subway was removed, it'd be the single busiest surface route). Sheppard would take people across the city and there'd be a half dozen major nodes along the way. Eglinton is simply not superior to other potential routes for "cross-city and inter-regional" trips.

I apologize but you're wrong about this. Sheppard built to full-length would still barely get someone a third of the way across Toronto. It also would never be inter-regional as it wouldn't directly interface with any suburban routes beyond the ones that ALREADY exist at Don Mills (Agincourt GO would need serious revitalization and more than 6 peak trips a day to be of use). About it becoming the busiest surafce route, that's debatable because alot of the 40, 000 people who use it daily only do so because there's no other option. Hence most of these would likely revert to the original routes they'd commute on prior to Sheppard's construction if it were axed. Eglinton on the other hand, has so many patterns of use you'd never see a half-emply train on its line off-peak. Consider this...

-Kennedy, Eglinton, Eglinton West interchanges
-13 stop bell-curve to Bloor-Yonge bypassed
-Real subway east of Kennedy (Shep's only caters to STC; while continuing onto the Kingston Rd corridor would link Guildwood GO/VIA Stn, Cedarbrae, the Morningside/West Hill area, U of T Scarbourough and inter-regional access with Durham via Hwy 2).
-intensification of Don Mills. Possible S-bahn into Thorncliffe Park area diminishing the need for a full-length Don Mills subway in the future
-BD alleviation, (some YUS alleviation as well)
-increases usage of the Spadina Line as commuters now have viable link between it and Yonge north of Bloor (Shep's has zero density intermediately to support a subway)
-Triggers development of Eglinton Flats, Mt. Dennis, Weston area
-Brings subway transit to Mississauga/GTA, airport/ACC and Hwy 27 corridor

I'm not saying never, I am saying in the long run which line benefits the greatest number of people (there's some utilitarianistic philosophy for you!)?

Is a Senlac stop more important than a DRL? Of course a full DRL or a very long Eglinton line would be better than a single 4km Sheppard extension, but it's a silly comparison - having one does not prevent the other.

It's does when gov'ts can only afford to build one at a time. It could be several decades before another chance for Eglinton or DRL comes by. Why screw it up now, by overtly inflating the significance of Sheppard, a line with limited potential when there are two more important gaping holes on the transit map commuters are begging for to be filled in?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes, any and every project would have been funded by MoveOntario...these "would you rather" transit debates are silly.

I apologize but you're wrong about this. Sheppard built to full-length would still barely get someone a third of the way across Toronto.

Look...no one actually wants to go all the way across the city and even if they did, Sheppard could be extended to the airport via York, Jane & Finch, Rexdale, Humber and Woodbine. Of course, the Midtown and other GO lines will take people "across the city" three times as fast as the Eglinton streetcar. You're making it sound like Durhamites will take it to Peel, which would be an absurd multi-hour trip each way.

 

[unimaginative2]

It's does when gov'ts can only afford to build one at a time. It could be several decades before another chance for Eglinton or DRL comes by. Why screw it up now, by overtly inflating the significance of Sheppard, a line with limited potential when there are two more important gaping holes on the transit map commuters are begging for to be filled in?

But that's simply not the case! MoveOntario2020 funded every single transit project that any municipality has even mused about wanting. It's only the transit "advocates" who've tied themselves in knots saying we can't afford anything and only my pet project can be afforded.

You can't compare an Eglinton line from one end of the city to the other with a Sheppard line that only goes from Yonge to STC (or Dufferin to STC). Eglinton as full subway would cost twice as much, for more or less twice as much benefit. Makes sense.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm not saying never, I am saying in the long run which line benefits the greatest number of people (there's some utilitarianistic philosophy for you!)?

In the long run and using subjective math, well, Sheppard wins. An airport rail link and rapid transit on Don Mills would mean Eglinton serves no unique nodes or destinations of any consequence along its entire length, reducing its wonderfulness to the fact that it goes pretty far across the city in an aesthetically pleasing straight line. If built today, Eglinton could be well-used, especially because it's currently force-fed by so many surface routes, and if it triggers real Avenueization (surface routes can be rerouted, though, and redevelopment potential can be said of every line, though), but I don't think any other line would be cannibalized as much in the future by other lines, improved GO service, etc.

 

[unimaginative2]

It's interesting how Toronto prizes straight lines for its transit routes to an extent unlike any other city in the world.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Yes, any and every project would have been funded by MoveOntario...these "would you rather" transit debates are silly.

Ugh, you just don't get it. The only approved subway extension in MoveOntario is the Yonge Richmond Hill extension. Everything else is LRT, BRT or highway improvements. A 20 billion dollar campaign whereby Toronto only gets 6 billion to create a 120 km network of new rapid transit lines. By the time Sheppard's built the cost to construct subways could balloon to the point most of the budget is squendered on one silly extension. 8kms of 'stubway' vs. 120 kms of LRT, there's nothing silly about safeguarding improved service for most of the city, not merely for lethargics too lazy to switch vehicles adjacent to eachother on the same platform. If you can suggest 750m proximity is good enough walking distance between stops downtown, I don't see why you're so adament about keeping subways on Sheppard at all costs when the concept of having trains there is still very new and commuters aren't inflexible to change?

Look...no one actually wants to go all the way across the city and even if they did, Sheppard could be extended to the airport via York, Jane & Finch, Rexdale, Humber and Woodbine. Of course, the Midtown and other GO lines will take people "across the city" three times as fast as the Eglinton streetcar. You're making it sound like Durhamites will take it to Peel, which would be an absurd multi-hour trip each way.

If it costs less than GO they might, maybe not all the way to Peel, but why not to commute to West Hill or Golden Mile or Don Mills or Yonge-Eglinton or Black Creek/Weston or the airport? Is it any coincidence so many nodes could be serviced by one line? Sheppard would never be extended that far west anyway, since the gaps in density are even larger there than in Agincourt-STC, hence you'd be throwing good money away at a line that a 5-mins-frequency bus could service. It'd make far more sense to veer an Eglinton line up Hwy 27 to link Rexdale, Woodbine and Humber College coincidentally servicing Perason and Geogretown GO as well.

It's interesting how Toronto prizes straight lines for its transit routes to an extent unlike any other city in the world.

I'd actually recommend NOT adhering to straight lines if an east-west subway line were to be built downtown. Queen could be used as the archetype but the line could be branched off (interlining) in the CBD area. As good as YUS loop is I'd add secondary stops exclusively at City Hall, CBD (King/Bay), St Lawrence Market, Queens Quay, Skydome, Chinatown/Grange and Ryerson University to name a few.

 

[Hypnotoad]

It's interesting how Toronto prizes straight lines for its transit routes to an extent unlike any other city in the world.

I find that odd as well. But then again, Toronto is on a grid system where everything runs parallel or perpendicular while other places aren't as practically designed. That may be part of the transit planners' thinking.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Queen could be used as the archetype but the line could be branched off (interlining) in the CBD area. As good as YUS loop is I'd add secondary stops exclusively at City Hall, CBD (King/Bay), St Lawrence Market, Queens Quay, Skydome, Chinatown/Grange and Ryerson University to name a few.

I Queen West line that dips to the Ex, King W, Fort York, City Place, CN Tower/Rogers Centre, ACC, St. Lawrence Market, George Brown, Distillery, West Don Lands, Beaches/Ashbridges, etc would be an ideal souther line that is not exaclty straight.

But Ryerson pretty much has a station (Dundas). If it were feasible, Ryerson could get a second one with a new entrance to College at Gerrard in the Aura building, but that is unlikely.