[unimaginative2]

Ugh, you just don't get it. The only approved subway extension in MoveOntario is the Yonge Richmond Hill extension. Everything else is LRT, BRT or highway improvements.

No, evidently you just don't get it. The only approved subway extensions are York U and Yonge Richmond Hill because they are the only subway extensions that municipalities were asking for. If Toronto asked for a Sheppard extension or a Scarborough extension, it would have been included. There are no highway projects in MoveOntario2020.

By the time Sheppard's built the cost to construct subways could balloon to the point most of the budget is squendered on one silly extension. 8kms of 'stubway' vs. 120 kms of LRT, there's nothing silly about safeguarding improved service for most of the city, not merely for lethargics too lazy to switch vehicles adjacent to eachother on the same platform.

Okay, so now you're claiming that a Sheppard extension will cost over $6 billion? That's just ridiculous. Ever thought it strange that it costs more to build subway in Toronto than almost any other city in the world? Maybe we should be looking into that.

If you can suggest 750m proximity is good enough walking distance between stops downtown, I don't see why you're so adament about keeping subways on Sheppard at all costs when the concept of having trains there is still very new and commuters aren't inflexible to change?

Commuters aren't inflexible to change? What does that even mean? I can assure you that commuters on Sheppard who bought thousands of condos because there's a subway there would be damned pissed off if it were shut down and replaced with a streetcar.

If it costs less than GO they might, maybe not all the way to Peel, but why not to commute to West Hill or Golden Mile or Don Mills or Yonge-Eglinton or Black Creek/Weston or the airport?

Oh wow, haven't I heard this before. It doesn't make sense to plan a subway line based on a tiny handful of people who are going to do a wild commute from Durham to Peel, or Rouge Hill to Kipling.

I'd actually recommend NOT adhering to straight lines if an east-west subway line were to be built downtown. Queen could be used as the archetype but the line could be branched off (interlining) in the CBD area. As good as YUS loop is I'd add secondary stops exclusively at City Hall, CBD (King/Bay), St Lawrence Market, Queens Quay, Skydome, Chinatown/Grange and Ryerson University to name a few.

So you'd have the line split of into one-station dead end branches? Or it would zig-zag all over downtown? Or it would split into multiple routes meaning 10 minute frequencies or worse on the busiest section of the line?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Ugh, you just don't get it. The only approved subway extension in MoveOntario is the Yonge Richmond Hill extension.

It'd make far more sense to veer an Eglinton line up Hwy 27 to link Rexdale, Woodbine and Humber College coincidentally servicing Perason and Geogretown GO as well.

MoveOntario only includes Spadina and Yonge extension because we didn't ask for anything else. This municipality asked for TransitCity and got it.

You criticize Sheppard for not serving enough along the way...what's on Eglinton between Yonge and the airport?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

I Queen West line that dips to the Ex, King W, Fort York, City Place, CN Tower/Rogers Centre, ACC, St. Lawrence Market, George Brown, Distillery, West Don Lands, Beaches/Ashbridges, etc would be an ideal souther line that is not exaclty straight. But Ryerson pretty much has a station (Dundas). If it were feasible, Ryerson could get a second one with a new entrance to College at Gerrard in the Aura building, but that is unlikely.

Sweet !!

That's what I was thinking. Parkside/St Joseph's to Jameson/Parkdale than dip down to Dufferin Gate, the Ex back upto King @Strachan, then back to Queen/Bathurst, then around Spadina/Chinatown, John/Grange, down John to Convention/Skydome across Front through CBD and St Lawrence, Sherbourne/King for George Brown, then around Distillery up through River/Regent Park across to Parliament/Cabbagetown, west long Gerrard to Ryerson then south back to Queen via City Hall/Coach Terminal to Yonge, Jarvis then with non-stop express to Broadview onwards to the Beaches. Dare to dream I guess!

So you'd have the line split of into one-station dead end branches?

If I did branch it, one spur would become the Don Mills Line via Lakeshore East SUB; the other would continue west of Keele/Parkside to Sherway Gardens and possibly MCC.

Oh wow, haven't I heard this before. It doesn't make sense to plan a subway line based on a tiny handful of people who are going to do a wild commute from Durham to Peel, or Rouge Hill to Kipling.

If people from as far as Hamilton, Barrie and London commute here everyday why is it so inconceivable that there's a real, NOT piecemeal demand for cross-town, CBD-bypass service?

Commuters aren't inflexible to change? What does that even mean?

It means the public could adapt to the Sheppard East LRT over time. The section from Yonge to Don Mills (the area closest to NYC) would still be underground, effectively still acting as a 'subway'. No one from the condo community should complain about that. However phasing out this stubway nonsense now is key if it's to ever get across to some people that there are higher priority lines yet to be built that this proposal stands in the way of.

Okay, so now you're claiming that a Sheppard extension will cost over $6 billion? That's just ridiculous. Ever thought it strange that it costs more to build subway in Toronto than almost any other city in the world?

Yes I don't understand why they're trying to subways by the most expensive methods possible. I figure by the time they get around to building Sheppard the costs to build subways will be that high if not higher, which makes it in my eyes a severe miscarriage of priorities to extend it.

If Toronto asked for a Sheppard extension or a Scarborough extension, it would have been included.

If vote-gathering and spreading the wealth all over Ontario, not just within Toronto means so much to politicians nowadays, sincerely I doubt that. The only reason we're getting new subways at all is because they extend into the 905.

This municipality asked for TransitCity and got it.

You say that like you were expecting them to choose 8 kms of subway over 120+ kms of LRT; marginal service over city-wide accesibility.

You criticize Sheppard for not serving enough along the way...what's on Eglinton between Yonge and the airport?

Enough to keep trains full all day long. 32 Eglinton West is one of most heavily used bus routes in the system and has many draws en route. Upper Canada College, Eglinton Way/Forest Hill, Eglinton West Stn., Fairbanks area, York City Centre (UC), two potentail GO connections, Black Creek/Weston. West of Guestville Ave. it could run all above ground (would anymore seriously protest roads bridging/tunneling around the subway through this area?). Whatever density lost could be instigated by the promise of a new line. Condos are already going up around Scarlett and Royal York and big chain stores occur at mid-blocks between Islington and Kipiling and Kipling and Martin Grove. West of Martin Grove the sky's the limit. Renforth Stn would be very popular with the MT BRT and ACC crowds. Veering up to Dixon would draw hotel/factory/office workers, convention centres and the 27 corridor. Then there's Pearson itself where no less than 40-60, 000 commuters would be heading. If even a fraction of those used Eglinton, the line would trump anything Sheppard can ever accomplish. Sorry 'bout the length.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Sw
If people from as far as Hamilton, Barrie and London commute here everyday why is it so inconceivable that there's a real, NOT piecemeal demand for cross-town, CBD-bypass service?

People make this commute (and I'm sure it is not many who do it from London on a daily basis) because they live in the other regions. Subways are designed to accommodate urban, not interurban transportation. A viable line is only one that can connect work, institutional, retail, destination (recreation) and dwelling uses. By leaning on the people from Hamilton, Barrie and other regions your argument is completely bankrupt. Speaking of which, what would convince people from these far reaches to give up their car in Toronto when they've already drove it this far? Who (in Toronto) would pay for a system that is designed to serve people from outside of the region? And who from outside of the region, who makes a lifestyle choice to live out of the city and rely on their car to get to work, would opt to switch modes when part of their lifestyle is to drive on their own schedule to and from their dwelling and place of work?

And to add to the chorus, the VCC and Richmond Hill expansions were asked for my York Region. Where was the TCC and Toronto when the Ontario Government asked for new subway lines? No where, or stuck in an unsustainable streetcar network dream, that's where.

If any subway should be complete it is Sheppard. If any new subway should be built is a new downtown line that serves an already transit-oriented culture.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You say that like you were expecting them to choose 8 kms of subway over 120+ kms of LRT; marginal service over city-wide accesibility.

Those were not the options. TransitCity will cost almost $7 billion (not that cost matters due to MoveOntario). You honestly think $7 billion will only take the Sheppard line to STC and then the money will be gone? Construction costs will be almost one billion dollars per km?

While people drive in from Barrie or Oshawa, under no circumstances would they take a subway or streetcar for the whole way when they can drive it in <1/3 the time, or take a GO/commuter train. Very few people ride from Kipling to Kennedy...an insignificant number would ride for longer than that. Sitting on a subway or streetcar for 90, 120, or more minutes each way is just not going to be very popular and people will not get used to it.

If Eglinton is run from Mississauga to West Hill, logically its ridership can't help but be high because the line is so long. But Upper Canada College and the non-existent York Centre...wow, let's get those TBM's going! Eglinton looks good on maps, like the kind of line a world class city would have, but it could potentially be cannibalized more than any other line by other projects.

If any subway should be complete it is Sheppard. If any new subway should be built is a new downtown line that serves an already transit-oriented culture.

Yay! Although the Yonge line also deserves completion north of Finch, the gap between what exists and what should exist is not as glaringly high as Sheppard.

 

[unimaginative2]

Dentrobate, we had a member here called socialwoe, and he also had visions of subway lines that made 180 degree turns every couple blocks. I think we may have finally got through to him that it's not only ridiculous, it's impossible.

The province included every transit idea verbatim from municipal plans. If York wanted subways, they got subways. Durham wanted busway, they got busway. Toronto wanted streetcars. They got streetcars.

It's beyond absurd to even suggest that a subway would cost a billion dollars a kilometre. $100-200 million a kilometre is the generally-accepted (and rather inflated) figure.

You still haven't explained to me how LRT will be faster than the existing bus routes. How will these new streetcar routes, in your mind, be different from their models on Spadina or St. Clair?

Haha... York City Centre "(UC)"
Have you ever been there? It's been empty fields for two decades and it will remain that way.
60,000 commuters will ride to the airport alone?

 

[lordmandeep]

everyone is going crazy with tokens...

i bought 57 today...
i came with 12 ten dollar bills...
lol

i saw some guy buy over 150 atleast...


He had like 30 10-dollar bills in his wallet!!!
Sitting there sticking in tens into the token machine at Union.

Now the TTC guy yells at people if they buy more then once.

 

[adma]

I find that odd as well. But then again, Toronto is on a grid system where everything runs parallel or perpendicular while other places aren't as practically designed. That may be part of the transit planners' thinking.

Though Toronto's grid isn't nearly as "worked out" as what you might find in, say, Calgary--or Manhattan, for that matter...

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Who (in Toronto) would pay for a system that is designed to serve people from outside of the region?

Technically, the line I envision would only enter Mississauga for the sake of the airport. The line is primarily for Torontonians who want a direct, fast route across the city through the geographic median, not encumbered by 32 BD stops only to have to tranfer onto arduously long/unreliable bus trips thereafter.

Those were not the options. TransitCity will cost almost $7 billion (not that cost matters due to MoveOntario). You honestly think $7 billion will only take the Sheppard line to STC and then the money will be gone? Construction costs will be almost one billion dollars per km?

I not saying it'll take up all the funds, but every year that goes by the projected costs for the VCC line keeps climbing and climbing and climbing. If Sheppard's extended it'll likely be after 2015 when the 905 extension's over with, so today's figure of 200 million per kilometre could be alot more by then. If Sheppard, VCC and TransitCity were all taken on simultaneously, Sheppard would only reach VP, Spadina only to York U and some of the LRT routes postponed indifinitely.

Dentrobate, we had a member here called socialwoe, and he also had visions of subway lines that made 180 degree turns every couple blocks. I think we may have finally got through to him that it's not only ridiculous, it's impossible.

I was thinking more like Chicago's L loop in the city centre. The line fringes the city core in a circular fashion before branching off in different directions. The loop running clockwise from Parkside through the Lakeshore corridor, up River Street, across Gerrard, down Bay then west on Queen. The branches would then be Riverdale/East York/Don Mills; Queen East/Kingston Rd; Queensway/Sherway. I don't know how it would work mechanically though.

Haha... York City Centre "(UC)"
Have you ever been there? It's been empty fields for two decades and it will remain that way.
60,000 commuters will ride to the airport alone?

Maybe the area just needs an incentive to mass-develop which will bring condos, office towers and muncipal buildings, hence lots of riders. The potential GO link and preexisting density just to the north (Weston) and east (Keelesdale) could eventually envelope the Black Creek area. The 400 (Black Creek Drive) could be buried through to north of Trethewey, encouraging pedestrian-friendliness and street-life leading upto avenuezation (sp?).

Pearson sees approximately that many commuters each day. I said if even a fraction of them got there via an Eglinton subway there'd be a basis for building it not to mention all the surrounding density (Airport Corporate Centre, International Centre/Malton GO, Skyway Industrial Park, Toronto Congress Centre, all the major hotel chains around Carlingview).

 

[rpgr]

Maybe the area just needs an incentive to mass-develop which will bring condos, office towers and muncipal buildings, hence lots of riders. The potential GO link and preexisting density just to the north (Weston) and east (Keelesdale) could eventually envelope the Black Creek area. The 400 (Black Creek Drive) could be buried through to north of Trethewey, encouraging pedestrian-friendliness and street-life leading upto avenuezation (sp?).

Pearson sees approximately that many commuters each day. I said if even a fraction of them got there via an Eglinton subway there'd be a basis for building it not to mention all the surrounding density (Airport Corporate Centre, International Centre/Malton GO, Skyway Industrial Park, Toronto Congress Centre, all the major hotel chains around Carlingview).

The problem with growth around the York region is the lack of a highway (we don't count the 407 due to tolls unless Toronto charges tolls on all highways) and it is the same way with Eglinton. Shepperd straddles the 401 for a good long ways. A transit route is only part of the reason for the redevelopment.

When combined, a transit route and a major highway is what spurs forward major development/redevelopment. One or the other is not enough as evidenced by the bloor line in places.

 

[Towered]

This thread is starting to frighteningly resemble the endless debates between scarberiankhatru and socialwoe from a few months back...

What ever happened to that freak anyway?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That thread was kept alive for entertainment purposes...perhaps this one should be terminated so that you're not forced to read it, too?

 

[rpgr]

That thread was kept alive for entertainment purposes...perhaps this one should be terminated so that you're not forced to read it, too?

But it's a fun thread! Fun in the carwreck kinda way. You know you shouldn't look but you do and for some reason you don't regret it.

 

[Panzerfaust]

But it's a fun thread! Fun in the carwreck kinda way. You know you shouldn't look but you do and for some reason you don't regret it.

I concur, though I would rather use the term "trainwreck". It's just more fitting, considering the subject matter.

 

[MisterF]

I said a useful complete new line would be better than than a simple extension.

GO improvements would not eliminate the need for a DRL.

I wasn't proposing just GO improvements. I was proposing a complete conversion to regional rail, which can be capable of carrying loads almost as heavy as a subway line. Sydney's Cityrail carries 900,000 riders per day. In that city the idea of commuter rail and subway being separate doesn't exist.