[nfitz]

Remember "regional trains" in Paris, Tokyo and Berlin are not the same as in Toronto, as the former run at subway-like intervals/hours ...

Not sure that you mean by "subway-like" intervals. I've certainly waited 15 minutes for an RER train, and if I recall, it can be longer. Though I've waited the same for subway trains in Seoul, and 20 minutes for subway trains in New York City.

If we get to 15-minute off-peak GO service, is that subway-like intervals?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Not sure that you mean by "subway-like" intervals. I've certainly waited 15 minutes for an RER train, and if I recall, it can be longer. Though I've waited the same for subway trains in Seoul, and 20 minutes for subway trains in New York City.

If we get to 15-minute off-peak GO service, is that subway-like intervals?

I similarly thought it was a strange assessment of our system. Some people (like Steve Munro, if I may) are so embedded in what IS and all the problems that come with it that they can't see the forest for the trees. All one would need to do is run more trains on the tracks we have to ksun's definition of a regional system. It's not such a big leap and, indeed, I do believe the government proposed doing precisely that just a few weeks ago. Our system doesn't need to be "inflated" in the imagination; it just needs people to see beyond the sad constraints it's been under for a generation.

Obviously GO is not the RER or even the Long Island Railroad - but that's easy to change if someone wants to actually make the effort.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Not sure that you mean by "subway-like" intervals. I've certainly waited 15 minutes for an RER train, and if I recall, it can be longer. Though I've waited the same for subway trains in Seoul, and 20 minutes for subway trains in New York City.

If we get to 15-minute off-peak GO service, is that subway-like intervals?

When I rode RER A in Paris, I was astounded watching a train entering the station while the train in front was just leaving! I looked it up, and RER A uses a custom built signalling system that allows trains to literally enter a station before the train ahead fully leaves. It's amazing to watch.

 

[ksun]

If we get to 15-minute off-peak GO service, is that subway-like intervals?

Yes, definitely. I think that's all we need.
15 minutes is not bad. but even with 5 minutes headway, the GO still won't be the same thing.

Because it is not really just about headway. Regional trains in those cities are seamlessly integrated with the subway. For example, in Tokyo or Paris, you can hardly tell if you are taking the subway or the regional trains because they work together, with many interchange stations.

Go and the TTC are still completely different systems and one can immediately tell the difference. There are very few interchange stations and the transfer is not seamless (you get out of one system and get into the other), if I remember it correctly.

Additionally, there are hardly any stops in the central area, so for people who live in old Toronto, they are almost useless. For example, on the Barrie line, the first stop after Union is York University. I myself have never taken Go once because it only goes to limited areas in the suburban residential area. And if you look at the yamanote line in Tokyo, it is essentially a ring line in central Tokyo that people take on a daily basis.

This is why I said the GO isn't the same thing as the regional trains in Tokyo, Berlin or Paris, which serves the suburbs as well as the inner city. The GO serves the suburbs exclusively.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ksun, probably the line with the most potential to be what you want it to be would be the Kitchener line....currently 4 of its 12 stops are within Toronto and that will climb to 5 of 13 when the connection/hub with the Eglinton Crosstown is built. Could even be 6 of 14 if we could get over the technical challenges and build that LibertyVillage/ExhibitionNorth station I often dream of.

At 5 of 13, 3 of the 5 stations in Toronto will directly connect with TTC rapid transit lines....yes, I imagine, there will still be an actual "leaving of one system to join another" but I think the physical improvements underway combined with the presto rollout on the TTC will, for most people, make it seem rather seamless and unified.

 

[ksun]

^ probably so, but the Kitchener line still has no stops except the terminal station in the central Toronto. Dundas West is pretty far already.

The GO is more comparable with BART, but even Bart made the decision of having quite a few stops in the central San Francisco, with 3 stops on Market street other than Embarcadero (SF's union station) and 8 stations in the city of SF. Dundas West would be comparable to Glen Park Station in terms of geographical location.

My point is, GO essentially serves as a commuter train instead of "rapid transit", while RER, S-Bahn and Bart, although largely serves the suburbs, has the secondary function of serving the inner cities, including business districts and tourist attractions due to multiple stations available. RER for example has stops at Musee d'orsay and the Eiffer Tower etc. It is like our Go system serving ROM and Casa Loma.

 

[the lemur]

'Subway-like' intervals are really an imprecise measure; I know I've been surprised at the intervals between (off-peak) subway trains in other cities compared to Toronto. Washington springs to mind.

 

[ksun]

'Subway-like' intervals are really an imprecise measure; I know I've been surprised at the intervals between (off-peak) subway trains in other cities compared to Toronto. Washington springs to mind.

Line A and B of RER have one train in less than two minutes. Yamanote line is every 2.5 minutes rush hour and 4 minutes off peak.
There is a world outside USA.

 

[rbt]

'Subway-like' intervals are really an imprecise measure; I know I've been surprised at the intervals between (off-peak) subway trains in other cities compared to Toronto. Washington springs to mind.

Washington, Chicago, Miami, and Boston all run metro service with 12 minute to 20 minute frequencies at times when TTC runs with 5 minute frequencies.

LA's Expo Line runs 12 minute frequencies most of the time; 20 minutes after midnight.

I think Montreal still runs 10 to 12 minute frequencies on the blue line in the late evening.

NY on branches gets up to 20 minute frequencies (on rare occasions when trains are on time); though the core of the routes is always much higher.

Atlanta runs 15 minute frequencies during rush-hour; lines do overlap in the central portion.

GO transit with 15 minute maximums from 6am to 1am is very much in line with North American Metro service. Rush-hour service on some routes like Lake Shore would be closer to 3 minute frequencies (already hits 5 to 6 minutes combined local/express).

 

[nfitz]

When I rode RER A in Paris, I was astounded watching a train entering the station while the train in front was just leaving! I looked it up, and RER A uses a custom built signalling system that allows trains to literally enter a station before the train ahead fully leaves. It's amazing to watch.

It is, but you were likely at one of the very busy stations where lines A and B intersect and even interline, like Gare du Nord or Chatelet. Get out of the centre, and frequencies of once every 30 minutes exist. Like line C6 - http://www.transilien.com/contents/...ires/hiver2013/C-HIV14-D65-SD-version0403.pdf

Once every 30 minutes .. wait, that's the Lakeshore line!

 

[gweed123]

Remember "regional trains" in Paris, Tokyo and Berlin are not the same as in Toronto, as the former run at subway-like intervals/hours and are fully integrated.
GTA's regional trains shouldn't be on the map. Let's not inflate our system.

I'm almost done the map, and what I've decided is to split the GO service in two: GO REX lines are solid lines, while SOGO (Southern Ontario GO, covering the larger area beyond just the GTA) is the line with the white strip down the middle that is used to denote things like LRT.

Realistically, once GO REX is implemented the system is going to need to be tiered anyway, because a) electrifying that far out would be prohibitively expensive, and b) those trips would be incredibly long if they had to stop at every GO REX stop.

FWIW, I consider GO REX to be on the same level as the TTC subway when it comes to basic service levels, especially in areas where you have multiple lines overlapping.

 

[ksun]

Washington, Chicago, Miami, and Boston all run metro service with 12 minute to 20 minute frequencies at times when TTC runs with 5 minute frequencies.

LA's Expo Line runs 12 minute frequencies most of the time; 20 minutes after midnight.

I think Montreal still runs 10 to 12 minute frequencies on the blue line in the late evening.

NY on branches gets up to 20 minute frequencies (on rare occasions when trains are on time); though the core of the routes is always much higher.

Atlanta runs 15 minute frequencies during rush-hour; lines do overlap in the central portion.

GO transit with 15 minute maximums from 6am to 1am is very much in line with North American Metro service. Rush-hour service on some routes like Lake Shore would be closer to 3 minute frequencies (already hits 5 to 6 minutes combined local/express).

the TTC subway does have outstandingly frequent service that's hard to beat.

however, it is not so much the headways but rather the lack of stops in central area that make the Go more like commuter trains than urban rapid transit no matter how frequent is it- it is only useful for those who commute from the suburbs while providing zero local service to the city.

 

[W. K. Lis]

the TTC subway does have outstandingly frequent service that's hard to beat.

however, it is not so much the headways but rather the lack of stops in central area that make the Go more like commuter trains than urban rapid transit no matter how frequent is it- it is only useful for those who commute from the suburbs while providing zero local service to the city.

When we are so used to the frequency on the TTC (both subway, streetcar, and bus), that when we visit other cities (in the non-rush hour) that we wonder if there is some emergency that is delaying service in those cities.

 

[Transportfan]

What does this have to do with the Spadina extension?

 

[ksun]

When we are so used to the frequency on the TTC (both subway, streetcar, and bus), that when we visit other cities (in the non-rush hour) that we wonder if there is some emergency that is delaying service in those cities.

depending on which "other cities". American cities are not the only cities on earth.
I traveled to Shanghai, Tokyo and Hong Kong and their off peak hours are as frequent as TTC subway if not better. And out street cars are not frequent or reliable at all. I spend 13 or 15 minutes waiting for 505 quite often. 506 is even worse, sometimes as long as 27 minutes.