[rbt]

They may just do a fixed price P3 project like Eglinton and Ottawa's LRT, which means no cost overruns.

Fewer cost overruns.

A few of the contractor claims are due to changing the requirements (ATO related is one part, Presto/Wifi might be another part). This kind of thing would still qualify for a contract amendment, or tendering a secondary contract shortly after completion to redo that portion of work.

 

[pstogios]

????

Last year, they said they didn't have the number yet of how much extra it was going to cost, but they'd have a good estimate at the end of 2015. Meanwhile the Toronto Star reported in March 2015 that the number looked like $400 million.

So now, at the end of 2015, they reveal the number is $400 million.

In what way is this a joke?

It doesn't appear like you are paying attention.

While this is accurate, I don't see how it isn't a joke that the earlier overrun of $180 million ballooned to $400 million. Are we supposed to be happy about that?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Fewer cost overruns.

A few of the contractor claims are due to changing the requirements (ATO related is one part, Presto/Wifi might be another part). This kind of thing would still qualify for a contract amendment, or tendering a secondary contract shortly after completion to redo that portion of work.

how about over designing the stations I would rather they had taken the ideas from the sheppard subway and just made them bare concrete walls and such. It's a subway station for gods sake most of these stations look like they are editions to a famous museum

 

[nfitz]

While this is accurate, I don't see how it isn't a joke that the earlier overrun of $180 million ballooned to $400 million. Are we supposed to be happy about that?

A year ago when this came out when they fired the managers and reset the project, I don't think anyone was happy about it. The faux outrage a year later when we find out that the extra cost is about what was predicted previously, asking about those responsible - who have of course already lost their jobs - is uncalled for.

If anything, we should be relieved a year later, that after the new oversight engineers have been digging into it, that the extra overrun is about what they were thinking it would be, and the project is still going to be delivered next year.

 

[smallspy]

I wonder if this is an indication that (similar to the West Harbour GO station's opening tied to the Pan Am games) the line may be completed functionally but some of the cosmetic details and less critical details won't be finished by 2017.

- Paul

This is exactly what happened when the Sheppard Line opened in 2002. While the finishes in the obvious areas were done, a number of additional functions and features - bathrooms, emergency exit alarm systems, some escalators, etc. - were not operational at the opening. It took them until the spring to finish everything up.

And I suspect that this again is what we'll see with the opening of the TYSSE in almost 2 years.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[rbt]

how about over designing the stations I would rather they had taken the ideas from the sheppard subway and just made them bare concrete walls and such. It's a subway station for gods sake most of these stations look like they are editions to a famous museum

That doesn't cause a cost overrun on a contract, it causes a higher initial price. The costs discussed in the article are (mostly) private construction companies coming back for more money than they promised to do the job for.

Also, this forum was very pro-Montreal style stations before Spadina was tendered.

 

[Adjei]

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/01/15/video-sneak-peek-inside-the-toronto-york-spadina-subway-extension/

 

[Adjei]

how about over designing the stations I would rather they had taken the ideas from the sheppard subway and just made them bare concrete walls and such. It's a subway station for gods sake most of these stations look like they are editions to a famous museum

Yeah why can't we have nice things. It's thinking like this why most of the city looks so terrible.

 

[Dan416]

How is it that these new projects keep going over-budget when Sheppard was on budget?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

How is it that these new projects keep going over-budget when Sheppard was on budget?

Maybe it's that before its provincial funding was gutted (which happened simultaneous with Sheppard) there were still people at the TTC who knew how to do this stuff?

It's a travesty how this keeps unfolding and it just seems to be their M.O. the last few, well, decades. The TTC's spent the past few decades, it seems, struggling so much to even approximate a State of Good Repair that when they're charged with doing something ambitious, they can't quite pull it off.

It's sad when it's gotten to the point where someone can seriously suggest stations should be bare-bones concrete boxes as if this city's problem is TOO much design and too much concern with aesthetics. Really, the design is the very least of the problems with how it's all rolled out.

 

[Adjei]

Maybe it's that before its provincial funding was gutted (which happened simultaneous with Sheppard) there were still people at the TTC who knew how to do this stuff?

It's a travesty how this keeps unfolding and it just seems to be their M.O. the last few, well, decades. The TTC's spent the past few decades, it seems, struggling so much to even approximate a State of Good Repair that when they're charged with doing something ambitious, they can't quite pull it off.

It's sad when it's gotten to the point where someone can seriously suggest stations should be bare-bones concrete boxes as if this city's problem is TOO much design and too much concern with aesthetics. Really, the design is the very least of the problems with how it's all rolled out.

Well said. Too often with public projects, they low ball the cost of the projects in order to get them approved, we then later start getting the true costs as the project moves along. Then people start screaming overbudget. TTC should never be in charge of any transit project ever again. They have shown themselves to be incompetent in managing them .

 

[crs1026]

How is it that these new projects keep going over-budget when Sheppard was on budget?

People who study big project performance will be quick to point out that it's extremely common for this to happen. The staff report is pretty candid about this particular project - it's a bit of a list of the key "don't"s for a big project -

The key themes that have driven the cost and schedule impacts to the project from its inception in 2005 to current day can be summarized as follows:

1. Delay in release of funding;
2. Selection of Project delivery strategy;
3. Scope changes and design evolution prior to contract tender;
4. Design maturity at tender;
5. Contractor performance; and
6. Project management execution.

As nfitz pointed out, the good news is, the recovery strategy seems to be working and hasn't uncovered a whack of new costs. Heads did roll. There is no news in this latest report, it's the recovery playing out as expected. Time to start counting the months remaining.

- Paul

 

[salsa]

how about over designing the stations I would rather they had taken the ideas from the sheppard subway and just made them bare concrete walls and such. It's a subway station for gods sake most of these stations look like they are editions to a famous museum

What you should me more annoyed about is that the stations are so massive and cavernous. Aesthetics alone are only a small part of the cost of a subway station, so cheapening out on that is a great way to not save much money while significantly reducing the attractiveness of the subway. I agree that the architecture should have been a little more modest, not because of the cost but because I'm concerned about how well it will be maintained over time. However if you don't mind looking at bare concrete, then luckily for you there might be plenty of that despite the heavy investment in quality architecture.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What you should me more annoyed about is that the stations are so massive and cavernous. Aesthetics alone are only a small part of the cost of a subway station, so cheapening out on that is a great way to not save much money while significantly reducing the attractiveness of the subway. I agree that the architecture should have been a little more modest, not because of the cost but because I'm concerned about how well it will be maintained over time. However if you don't mind looking at bare concrete, then luckily for you there might be plenty of that despite the heavy investment in quality architecture.
View attachment 64064

I've never seen this render before. Are they really renovating Downsview (Sheppard West) Station!?

I certainly hope not. Downsview's design is among the best in the system.

The design in that render is unremarkable crap.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I can't agree that the size is massive. I've passed by these stations a few times and every time my first thought has been "damn, these stations are a lot smaller than I thought". Their sizes seem to be comparable or smaller to Kennedy, Warden, Victoria Park, Islington, Kipling, Eglinton West, Downsview

I feel that the renders really oversold the size of the facilities.