[Leo_Chan]

Highway 407 and VMC stations should have been consolidated into one station (by shifting VMC station so that it is entirely south of Highway 7) but obviously it's too late for that. That said, I think ridership wouldn't be as low as some people think. Look at Richmond Hill Centre: there's some stuff within walking distance (like the SilverCity) but the walk-in traffic is probably negligible. Instead, the terminal is kept decently busy by PPUDO and as a transfer point.

It’s never too late to change their minds. Just get an anti-gravity well machine to lift the ground up and rotate about VMC Vivastation. /s

 

[Richard White]

For the record, CONSTRUCTION started in July 2008. I suppose most of EA and consultations precede that?
9 years for 6 stations, and some of us actually think it is normal, even trying to justify that (oh, it is because we do things properly).

The main problem is that politicians do not want to pony up cash all at once. They want to spread it out to make the books look good. Nothing worse than a multi billion dollar hit in the same year for a transit project.

When they need a boost pre-election they can pump more money into things in order to look good. If they were to have multiple companies working on various projects all at once they would be able to get things done alot quicker than they are but that costs money.

There needs to be a way to expedite things like there was in the 40s, 50s and into the 60s when the Y-U-S and Bloor-Danforth lines were built. Cut, cover and tunnel underneath Queens Park. It is disruptive but it works.

At this rate, the SSE for example will go through planning when I am 25 and come out completed when I am 40+. That says something.

 

[Johnny Au]

China has a tremendous - and you know there's not a lot of things I like about the Chinese - But the Chinese have a tremendous transit system. We used to win like the Chinese, but we don't anymore 'cause of those stupid and weak leaders in City Hall.

If I were dictator, Toronto transit would be fixed so quick, believe me. I'd get rid of these weak leaders in City Hall and Queens Park and build so much transit. Toronto would have the most tremendous transit. We'd build so much transit that you'd get tired of all the transit we're building. In fact, you'll beg me to stop building. But I'll keep on building and we'll keep on winning and you're gonna love it. Believe me

All hail God-Emperor Louis Mark!

 

[steveintoronto]

Noting the tags "Madrid, Spadina Extension, Toronto time to build, York U, etc"...this is a revealing retrospect from almost a decade and a half
back:

Why subways take so long to construct

Jeff Gray
Globe and Mail
March 28, 2017 November 24, 2003

Reader Doug Kvistbo writes: "Perhaps you can explain to us why it takes so long to build a subway in Toronto."

He points out that the 2¼-kilometre extension from Wilson Station to Downsview took four years to build.

The 5.3-kilometre, $994-million Sheppard subway line took eight years.


But Mexico City apparently started building its first subway line in 1967, opening its first phase -- twice the length of the Sheppard line -- just two years later. Mr. Kvistbo wants to know why can't we build subways faster than the Mexicans did more than 35 years ago.

The Toronto Transit Commission's general manager of engineering and construction, John Sepulis, said you can't really compare Mexico City in the late 1960s to Toronto today. Employment standards, labour costs, environmental assessments, safety equipment, modern computer systems -- all make building a 21st-century subway immensely more complex, he said.

The new Sheppard-Yonge Station alone took almost two years to design.

But Mr. Sepulis acknowledged that the Sheppard line took longer than it should have. Construction went on a hiatus of several months after Mike Harris's Conservatives won the 1995 election, because it wasn't clear whether the project would go ahead.

Mr. Sepulis said the TTC is on the lookout for ways to speed up any future subway projects, and has asked authorities in Madrid for advice on how they built their new subway line.

But as it stands, the plan to extend the Sheppard line from Don Mills to Scarborough City Centre, if it goes through, is still scheduled to take 10 years.

Rapid bus corridors -- "busways" -- are cheaper and quicker to build than billion-dollar subways, and increasingly transit systems here and in other places around the world are looking to them. You can find them in Ottawa, and car-clogged cities in Latin America are using them to deal with rapid growth.

The province has decided to open what it calls "bus bypass shoulders" along Highway 403, from Mavis Road and Erin Mills Parkway, to allow both GO buses and Mississauga Transit buses to blow past snarled traffic. As soon as the bus drivers have been trained to use the lanes, they will be phased in.

Toronto's mayor-elect, David Miller, has been among those pushing a plan to convert a hydro right-of-way into a special bus road from Downsview Station to York University.

Buses, freed from traffic congestion, would zip back and forth, ferrying 50,000 students a day to and from campus.

A subway extension from Downsview to the university is also planned, but that would take years and cost at least $1.5-billion. This busway could be up and running by 2006.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...le773962/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

Toronto never has been a city good at subway infrastructure rate of build, and probably never will be at this rate. It's a number of factors, the first three being 'politics, politics, and politics'.

The Municipal Act (manifest as the Toronto Act in TO's case) is a huge impediment, and so is QP itself. One of the best glowing examples of a transit construction project with *even more rigorous approval processes* to satisfy has radically changed the way the UK now approaches such models, and it's the Crossrail Project. On Time, On Budget, and being studied around the world as a new *business model* as well as engineering and implementation to garner world leading results.

Could Toronto copy it to learn? Doubtful, even if powers-to-be wanted to. The way the governing structure is set-up in Ontario almost guarantees inefficiency, cost and very slow results.

[...]
Despite spending decades in gestation, delivery of the project has been remarkably smooth, with the government claiming the project will be delivered on time and on budget. Experts seem to agree that the governance structures put in place for the Crossrail project have helped put the UK back on track when it comes to delivering major transport infrastructure. So what’s the secret?
[...]

https://www.civilserviceworld.com/a...et-how-get-major-infrastructure-project-right

 

[Sandpit]

China has a tremendous - and you know there's not a lot of things I like about the Chinese - But the Chinese have a tremendous transit system. We used to win like the Chinese, but we don't anymore 'cause of those stupid and weak leaders in City Hall.

If I were dictator, Toronto transit would be fixed so quick, believe me. I'd get rid of these weak leaders in City Hall and Queens Park and build so much transit. Toronto would have the most tremendous transit. We'd build so much transit that you'd get tired of all the transit we're building. In fact, you'll beg me to stop building. But I'll keep on building and we'll keep on winning and you're gonna love it. Believe me

Obviously this is a reference to you-know-who, but try reading that in Doug Ford's voice...

 

[Richard White]

One of the best glowing examples of a transit construction project with *even more rigorous approval processes* to satisfy has radically changed the way the UK now approaches such models, and it's the Crossrail Project. On Time, On Budget, and being studied around the world as a new *business model* as well as engineering and implementation to garner world leading results.

I saw Crossrail earlier this year. It is a remarkable feat of engineering and surprisingly not that invasive. I spent a great deal of time at Tottenham Court Road, Paddington and even Canary Wharf but the project is steaming along well with only minimal disruptions on the surface.

The Museum of London - Docklands has a lovely display where you can walk into the tunnels as part of a guided tour. I believe the section from Shenfield to Stratford is open already with some rather remarkable trains.

Compared to cities like Toronto where streets like Eglinton are excavated for a subway line Crossrail had none of that. It can be done..

 

[Steve X]

Highway 407 and VMC stations should have been consolidated into one station (by shifting VMC station so that it is entirely south of Highway 7) but obviously it's too late for that. That said, I think ridership wouldn't be as low as some people think. Look at Richmond Hill Centre: there's some stuff within walking distance (like the SilverCity) but the walk-in traffic is probably negligible. Instead, the terminal is kept decently busy by PPUDO and as a transfer point.

Highway 407 station has a very high efficiency of bus traffic from the 407. It makes a lot of sense maybe in 15-30 years later. Having all buses route on Jane St isn't the best idea. Right now, who knows where the demand is. Maybe with a better fare integation, GO buses can transfer at Hwy407 station to the TYSSE and then to the Barrie Line at Downsview Park.

VMC station is actually done well. Although the VIVA transfer will open at a later date, it will offer a direct connection to the subway without having the VIVA buses loop around a terminal. It will save rider time. Something like Mt Dennis is terribly planned by making riders waste 5 minutes making a big loop.

 

[Leo_Chan]

VMC station is actually done well. Although the VIVA transfer will open at a later date, it will offer a direct connection to the subway without having the VIVA buses loop around a terminal. It will save rider time.

Actually, the VMC Viva Station will open with the subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not many around here seem to like the 407 Station design, but I'm quite happy with it. The geometry as you descend to platform level, and the skylight are particularly interesting. I am concerned with how the concrete will age though. Is this normal concrete, or fancy architectural concrete? Also, the TTC is going to need to maintain that skyline better than they did with the skylight features elsewhere on the University Line.

Anyways, hopefully the TYSSE is the beginning of a new era of high(er) quality architectural designs on Toronto's public transit system. I hope that many of these stations being white elephants won't scare the TTC from making these investments in future projects, such as DRL and SSE. We need to make up for the architectural sins of Line 2 and Eglinton Crosstown

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The main problem is that politicians do not want to pony up cash all at once. They want to spread it out to make the books look good. Nothing worse than a multi billion dollar hit in the same year for a transit project.

When they need a boost pre-election they can pump more money into things in order to look good. If they were to have multiple companies working on various projects all at once they would be able to get things done alot quicker than they are but that costs money.

There needs to be a way to expedite things like there was in the 40s, 50s and into the 60s when the Y-U-S and Bloor-Danforth lines were built. Cut, cover and tunnel underneath Queens Park. It is disruptive but it works.

At this rate, the SSE for example will go through planning when I am 25 and come out completed when I am 40+. That says something.

Beating the dead horse here, but this is yet another reason for transit revenue tools. Spending $7 Billion at once, from a trust fund set up specifically for transit, looks much better on the books than spending $7 Billion from general revenues.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Municipal Act (manifest as the Toronto Act in TO's case) is a huge impediment, and so is QP itself. One of the best glowing examples of a transit construction project with *even more rigorous approval processes* to satisfy has radically changed the way the UK now approaches such models, and it's the Crossrail Project. On Time, On Budget, and being studied around the world as a new *business model* as well as engineering and implementation to garner world leading results.

What specifically about the Municipal Act and/or the City of Toronto Act do you suggest is the impediment?

 

[M II A II R II K]

Toronto used to build large stretches of subway in one go up until 1978.

 

[ksun]

to put it into perspective
china did 1300km in 3(!) years for beijing to shanghai hsr! sure you can argue workforce and cheap labour but even at 1% of that production is still 13km in 3 years....
makes our construction standards look second rate.

15 years ago shanghai had virtually nothing in terms of metros. in the space of that time they now have over 20 lines. we are still stuck with 2.2 lines. says alot

Shanghai had 2 subways like Toronto does in 1997. Today, 20 years later it has 14 lines, surpassing London and NYC in terms of total system length, with 5 under construction.

In 1997, it took 9 hours to travel from Shanghai to my hometown, which is 300 km away (involving crossing the Yangtze River). Since 2010, it takes 3.5 hours because not one, but two bridges were built, and the highways are far better. A few days ago, it was announced a high speed rail would be constructed starting this Nov, which is to be completely by 2020, by then it will take 1 hour to travel between the two cities.

Sure, they don't have democracy and all sort of neighbourhood consultation and endless reports but I am sure it has done the general taxpayer a real good deed, saved a lot of money, and people's life has been vastly improved. Yes, we have democracy, which we pretend is the real reason everything is slow and that it is all worth it. Fine, have fun keep talking about the London-Toronto high speed rail (which I doubt we will see in 10 years) and those fantasy subway maps.

It is very easy to dismiss China's efficiency as a pure result of lack of democracy and labour laws, if that makes us feel more comfortable, or even superior. But we know we would prefer that things are done a bit faster (maybe not at China speed) and that a 6 stop subway won't take a ridiculous 9 years to build, and that a one stop subway in the middle of nowhere won't cost taxpayers 3.4 billion (it won't even be considered in China because politicians don't promise senseless subways to win votes)

 

[cplchanb]

Not many around here seem to like the 407 Station design, but I'm quite happy with it. The geometry as you descend to platform level, and the skylight are particularly interesting. I am concerned with how the concrete will age though. Is this normal concrete, or fancy architectural concrete? Also, the TTC is going to need to maintain that skyline better than they did with the skylight features elsewhere on the University Line.

Anyways, hopefully the TYSSE is the beginning of a new era of high(er) quality architectural designs on Toronto's public transit system. I hope that many of these stations being white elephants won't scare the TTC from making these investments in future projects, such as DRL and SSE. We need to make up for the architectural sins of Line 2 and Eglinton Crosstown

looks good. too bad its a wasted design since its in the middle of nowhere. At least it will age well due to a high chance of it not being overcrowded for the next decade or two

 

[innsertnamehere]

Toronto used to build large stretches of subway in one go up until 1978.

The line opening in December will only be 1km shorter than the Spadina extension that opened in 1978. It is the 3rd longest single opening in TTC history, only surpassed by the Spadina Extension (9.5km) and the original Bloor line (12.5km).


Toronto only really built the subway network rapidly in the 1960's, when the massive Bloor line project occured. Everything else was rather piecemeal.

We are back on track for subway openings every 5 years or so for the next couple of decades at least.. Eglinton is 4 years after Spadina, Scarborough 5 years after Eglinton, DRL will likely be 4-5 years after Scarborough..