[nfitz]

Terminate Highway 407 West buses at Hwy 407 Station and have Highway 407 East buses serve York U (I'm imagining a situation similiar to how the 25 serves U Waterloo) before terminating at Highway 407. The upside is no fare issue, but the downside is that it would still require a transfer at Highway 407 for those coming from the west and a detour for those transferring between East and West.

I'd think a compromise would be extending the 407 East (or west) buses to York U (perhaps to Pioneer Village) after stopping at 407 station, to provide a more continuous 407 service.

Looking at the travel times on Google maps, changing at 407 station didn't seem to change total trip time much during rush-hour (and would likely eliminate unexpected delays - traffic on Keele from 407 to campus can be brutal some days). Obviously a big impact outside of peak.

I can see both why the current plan is the right solution, and why people are upset. It's a shame they didn't figure out how to at least make it cost-neutral for riders.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

They DID figure it out. There was an agreement that the travel would be free between 407 and York, with tap out enforcing it.

Then the TTC just didn't do it. There wasn't even a moment I can recall them saying, or deciding, that they wouldn't follow through, they just haven't.

This isn't a problem that needs some massive permanent agreement on fare integration, it's a single exception of the type that could be EASILY implemented as fast as tap out can be made a requirement at one station and only one station. An ad-hoc Presto rule making travel between these two stations in particular is not a major issue, nor is requiring tap out at York and only York.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think you fail to appreciate how impossible an ad hoc agreement is, because of all the legalities and fiefdoms involved. It can't be done ad hoc any more than empty Viva buses were allowed to take TTC riders to York via the busway without YEARS of negotiations and contracts; or any more than an empty YRT bus can pick up a TTC-bound rider on its way to the subway.

I've said it before but knowingly repeating myself: This is not an isolated incident. This is a microcosm of a dysfunctional transit system. It is an exposed seam, that people who only travel within a single municipality cannot appreciate. But if you do then this like a loose thread on a shirt that you pull and the whole damned thing comes apart. It is embarrassing and it is reprehensible that transit riders are being treated this way. There's no excuse for it. Most GTA residents live outside Toronto and people have been going across the border for years and they will keep increasing.

Everyone knew this problem was coming - the subway took nearly a decade to build. A DECADE! They wrongly assumed fare integration would be solved because, dear lord, why wouldn't it be solvable given a DECADE!? This problem is not going away. It will get worse with RER. It will get worse with the Yonge extension. It will get worse with (lord help us) subways to Pickering or whatever else Doug is dreaming up.

For all intents and purposes, we do not have transit lines (save GO) that cross borders. But we have 100s of 1000s of RIDERS who do cross borders and have a system that penalizes them for it and treats them like pariahs. The downtown dwellers who love their flat fares have zero sympathy for the Brampton student who has to pay a full fare to get to Toronto and another full fare to cross the border. It's a complete injustice and many are to blame, at Metrolinx, the province and the municipalities involved. Everyone cares about their system and their perceived constituency and no one cares about the actual human beings - their customers - who ride the system. That's why, though I am beyond worried about how this government will do it, I think a subway upload is ultimately necessary. To fail to understand its role in moving riders from within and without Toronto is to fail to understand its role entirely.

No excuse.

That's my opinion/rant, anyway.

 

[raptor]

Food for thought: isn't a double fare a form of fare-by-distance, or zoned fares, that many were in favour around here? Isn't it fair that the further you travel, the more you pay? I get that York U is right on the city borders, but those borders must cross somewhere.

 

[TOareaFan]

The downtown dwellers who love their flat fares have zero sympathy for the Brampton student who has to pay a full fare to get to Toronto and another full fare to cross the border.

That is not what happens.....there are several points where BT "crosses the border" and no additional fare (full or otherwise) is paid. So there is no penalty for crossing the border....there is an additional fare if, after the "border" is crossed they want to continue their journey further into the other municipality using their transit system.

It all seems "right" to me.

It's a complete injustice and many are to blame, at Metrolinx, the province and the municipalities involved.

It just does not seem like an injustice to me at all. It seems like an alternative to using the regional "cross border" system (GO). If you use the GO fare as a proxy for what it "should" cost to travel from, say, DT Brampton to DT Toronto then you can compare the cost of taking the 501 to the subway and then transferring to the subway for the trip down. One is cheaper and one is faster...but the suggestion that the whole trip should be $3 because the rider chose to use two local systems instead of the one regional system is hard for me to get my head around.

Everyone cares about their system and their perceived constituency and no one cares about the actual human beings - their customers - who ride the system. That's why, though I am beyond worried about how this government will do it, I think a subway upload is ultimately necessary. To fail to understand its role in moving riders from within and without Toronto is to fail to understand its role entirely.

No excuse.

That's my opinion/rant, anyway.

I am not sure that "everyone" cares about their own system in the manner you suggest. I think the TTC is being very aware of where their operating funds come from and that is, mostly, the people of Toronto. I think they are protecting their citizens from having to (in reality or perception) pay for a free ride for people not in Toronto.

 

[TOareaFan]

Food for thought: isn't a double fare a form of fare-by-distance, or zoned fares, that many were in favour around here? Isn't it fair that the further you travel, the more you pay? I get that York U is right on the city borders, but those borders must cross somewhere.

I think you are right.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Food for thought: isn't a double fare a form of fare-by-distance, or zoned fares, that many were in favour around here? Isn't it fair that the further you travel, the more you pay?

An extra fare, sure.
A double fare, obviously not.

there is an additional fare if, after the "border" is crossed they want to continue their journey further into the other municipality using their transit system.

It all seems "right" to me.

Per above, seems obviously wrong to me, so agree to disagree.
This is splitting hairs - obviously you can ride a YRT bus to Finch Station and not be charged unless you get on TTC. That's not the point, especially since (as I pointed out) the YRT bus can't pick up Toronto riders going to the same destination while en route,

Your description of GO fares is also irrelevant since you are describing long, regional trips, not short trips that cross a border. (And it's even more pointless since GO has a co-fare agreement with TTC and no one else does which is ENTIRELY what my point is.)

Will it still seem fair if (for example) an RER fare from Unionville to Agincourt costs 2X what a trip from Agincourt to Union costs?

If it seems RIGHT to you, that someone pays a full fare to travel from Newmarket to Steeles and then another to travel to Finch - or even to the centre of the York U campus, go explain it to the thousands of people currently penalized by it on their long walk.

What you're not getting your ahead around, with all due respect, is that the current fare system distorts travel. If a York Region resident has to bike or walk or do anything other than get on the local bus to avoid paying a double fare, you are distorting the natural pattern and discouraging use of local transit. All the moreso if you are forcing people to walk instead of take a bus at the other end of the trip. Last mile is ALWAYS the hardest part of a trip to deal with - and that's even more true in suburbs, where houses are more spread out. The idea that we are OK with purposely leaving people far from their destination because "those borders must cross somewhere," well, it certainly shows me how we're in this position.

Those borders are meaningful in terms of where your property taxes go. In every other respect, they are utterly meaningless. You can travel to Canada's Wonderland without bringing your passport or go watch the Raptors 905 without converting your currency. It is all the same commutershed and it shows how ingrained these outdated fiefdoms are that people have no problem thinking it makes complete sense that a 5km trip should cost 2X what a 20km trip costs because of an arbitrary and imaginary line.

This isn't about "free" rides. It's about having an integrated system that allows people to get from A to B - even crossing a border - with seamless and integrated service across multiple systems.

 

[TOareaFan]

Per above, seems obviously wrong to me, so agree to disagree.

Isn't "agree to disagree" usually a sign that two people recognize that they have different opinions on things and that trying to convince each other to change their mind is not worth future discussion? In this case, however, we get.........

This is splitting hairs - obviously you can ride a YRT bus to Finch Station and not be charged unless you get on TTC. That's not the point, especially since (as I pointed out) the YRT bus can't pick up Toronto riders going to the same destination while en route,

Your description of GO fares is also irrelevant since you are describing long, regional trips, not short trips that cross a border. (And it's even more pointless since GO has a co-fare agreement with TTC and no one else does which is ENTIRELY what my point is.)

If it seems RIGHT to you, that someone pays a full fare to travel from Newmarket to Steeles and then another to travel to Finch - or even to the centre of the York U campus, go explain it to the thousands of people currently penalized by it on their long walk.

What you're not getting your ahead around, with all due respect, is that the current fare system distorts travel. If a York Region resident has to bike or walk or do anything than get on the local bus to avoid paying a double fare, you are distorting the natural pattern and discouraging use of local transit. All the moreso if you are forcing people to walk instead of take a bus at the other end of the trip. Last mile is ALWAYS the hardest part of a trip to deal with - and that's even more true in suburbs, where houses are more spread out. The idea that we are OK with purposely leaving people far from their destination because "those borders must cross somewhere," well, it certainly shows me how we're in this position.

Those borders are meaningful in terms of where your property taxes go. In every other respect, they are utterly meaningless. You can travel to Canada's Wonderland without bringing your passport or go watch the Raptors 905 without converting your currency. It is all the same commutershed and it shows how ingrained these outdated fiefdoms are that people have no problem thinking it makes complete sense that a 5km trip should cost 2X what a 20km trip costs because of an arbitrary and imaginary line.

This isn't about "free" rides. It's about having an integrated system that allows people to get from A to B - even crossing a border - with seamless and integrated service across multiple systems.


I am not sure that "everyone" cares about their own system in the manner you suggest. I think the TTC is being very aware of where their operating funds come from and that is, mostly, the people of Toronto. I think they are protecting their citizens from having to (in reality or perception) pay for a free ride for people not in Toronto.

......7 additional paragraphs of telling me why I am wrong

So we are agreeing to disagree as long as we agree my opinion is crap?

 

[rbt]

Then the TTC just didn't do it. There wasn't even a moment I can recall them saying, or deciding, that they wouldn't follow through, they just haven't.

TTC can't implement forced tap-outs until all fare-media except Presto (or Presto 1-time use tickets) are eliminated. Since Presto 1-time use tickets have not been implemented by Metrolinx for the TTC, they can't have forced tap-out at all gates which would allow or disallow exit based on the fare currently paid.

All that said, York Region transfer discounts may go against the agreement signed between TTC and York Region. TTC is paying for (subsidizing) operations for the York Region portion of the subway but it also collects fares. If you remove the TTC fare, now it's even more subsidized. York Region needs to kick annual funding into the subway operations pot, regardless of whether the province or TTC owns the line.


The actual problem is York Region wanted the subway for real-estate reasons, not because they intended to build/run a transportation network.

Don't expect much from the assistance TTC while that section of the extension is a money loser. Running service at all is already going above and beyond what should be required of Toronto residents.

 

[pstogios]

They haven't added many other lines in many cities - including NYC and London. Not really sure the relevance to this thread. I'd suggest you complain to Google and request a refund!

I don’t care if Google hasn’t added lines in any other city. Your comment has zero relevance to this thread. My comment was about wayfinding of the TYSSE which is the subject of this thread. I suggest you think of a relevant comment or go find another thread to pollute.

 

[nfitz]

My comment was about wayfinding of the TYSSE which is the subject of this thread.

Perhaps you can get a refund from your Google servic. How much do you pay them?

There's free mapping at http://www.ttc.ca/Trip_planner/index.jsp which does show the location of the TYSSE - and also the GO lines, which Google also doesn't include. Perhaps that's why they use Bing as a basemap instead of Google.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Is

So we are agreeing to disagree as long as we agree my opinion is crap?

Nah, I've seen some crap opinions and I wouldn't go that far. I do think it's wrong to look at what's happening right now at York U and see it as anything less than a microcosm of a dysfunctional transit system that serves local politicians more than riders. And I spent a few paragraphs explaining why. I can spend more if you're just looking to be persuaded

All that said, York Region transfer discounts may go against the agreement signed between TTC and York Region. TTC is paying for (subsidizing) operations for the York Region portion of the subway but it also collects fares. If you remove the TTC fare, now it's even more subsidized. York Region needs to kick annual funding into the subway operations pot, regardless of whether the province or TTC owns the line.

The actual problem is York Region wanted the subway for real-estate reasons, not because they intended to build/run a transportation network.

I agree YR should put $ into operations - or, more to the point, that we should be funding and managing and operating and building transit at a regional level - but this notion that YR "wanted the subway for a real-estate reasons," strikes me as simplistic at best. Or am I to believe that, unlike YR, Toronto only wants its subway for altruistic reasons - they don't care about money or development charges; it just warms the cockles of their hearts to see people moving about the city. That's why they subsidize their system less than any other major city on earth, pat themselves on the back for a long-overdue pilot project and keep changing their minds about what transit plan and what subway or LRT they should build first. Lord knows, looking at the Scarborough subway plan, real estate investment ain't the reason.

 

[rbt]

I agree YR should put $ into operations - or, more to the point, that we should be funding and managing and operating and building transit at a regional level - but this notion that YR "wanted the subway for a real-estate reasons," strikes me as simplistic at best. Or am I to believe that, unlike YR, Toronto only wants its subway for altruistic reasons.

Obviously Toronto expands service as a real-estate and political maneuver too; several examples of white elephant projects in the past. The difference is Toronto (via property taxes) has also paid the price (annually) to have service run.

York Region got their cake from the province, convinced Toronto to pay for delivery of the cake, and now they're hoping for a repeat of that with Yonge while at the same time YRT riders complain to Toronto about paying double fares. That's the irritating part; they get an annual gift and complain it isn't enough instead of asking why their region isn't taking more responsibility.

That multi-billion dollar BRT network which runs 15 minute frequencies most of the day is another example of mostly flash, no bang.

Yes, we need to do things to improve suburban ridership. Flashy toys isn't it; run service.

 

[WislaHD]

Again with this discussion I think the problem is that the riders crossing borders to head to York University shouldn't be the ones facing the brunt of this regional ineptitude towards fare integration. The end-user experience should be seamless, regardless of underlying problems of regional transit system.

The TTC should allow these jurisdictional border jumpers on the system with no or little extra fare, and simply bill the YRT/York Region/whatever offending agency.

Let civil bureaucrats and politicians fight over the matter, keep the end-user out of it and protect the transit user experience. (Or else, next time they might decide to drive instead)

 

[Transportfan]

This isn't a problem that needs some massive permanent agreement on fare integration, it's a single exception of the type that could be EASILY implemented as fast as tap out can be made a requirement at one station and only one station. An ad-hoc Presto rule making travel between these two stations in particular is not a major issue, nor is requiring tap out at York and only York.

Wasn't the free travel agreement supposed to apply at all the stations north of York U to allow connections for GO/YRT/Zum buses that serve the various stations?

I also notice in the media that people are simply complaining about the new double fare, and not the lack of implementation of the second fare reimbursement system which ppl don't even seem to be aware of.