Who says a downtown line must continue on where the Queen streetcar lines currently run and not turn up and hit Bloor/Danforth? The dubious obsession with bringing subway access to the Beach is comparable only to that of bringing a subway to Malvern. No matter how intrinsically appealing such a line may be, if Queen out near Victoria Park or south Etobicoke got a subway, it'd probably be substantial overkill with the B/D line so close.
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Why couldn't a line do both? It could easily well veer up Coxwell, Woodbine, Wineva/Southwood/Main or Victoria Park thereby linking with the BD line and serving an area on the move in terms of new developments. The 'too close' argument is what cancelled further talks of a downtown line in the first place and is why I think it'll never happen, although arguably at least one-third of BD users would be more convenienced by a route downtown.

Your "miles apart" would actually result in virtually everything along Queen being less than 500 metres away from a subway entrance and the tiny minority that would be farther than that would see massive overall improvements.
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True but some people will never feel satisfied til they live within a block of the subway :D.
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
Why couldn't a line do both? It could easily well veer up Coxwell, Woodbine, Wineva/Southwood/Main or Victoria Park thereby linking with the BD line and serving an area on the move in terms of new developments. The 'too close' argument is what cancelled further talks of a downtown line in the first place and is why I think it'll never happen, although arguably at least one-third of BD users would be more convenienced by a route downtown.
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There really aren't that many people out there and those living north of Kingston are extremely close to an existing line. I think that a line running up Don Mills after leaving downtown would be useful to so many more people that the route shouldn't be in question (of course, a DRL and a Queen line could co-exist and building both could be a long term goal...). "Too close" isn't what's preventing a downtown line since there's obviously hundreds of thousands of people (compared to the <20,000 people in the Beach) that would use it. Something "close" is needed downtown, what with Yonge line crowds, the huge total ridership on the streetcar lines, etc.

DENTROBATE54 said:
True but some people will never feel satisfied til they live within a block of the subway :D.
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To some people, "access" is the most important factor in transit...they don't care how long it actually takes to get anywhere as long as they have access to a vehicle at their front door.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
I think that a line running up Don Mills after leaving downtown would be useful to so many more people that the route shouldn't be in question (of course, a DRL and a Queen line could co-exist and building both could be a long term goal...).
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Living at St. Clair heading downtown in the morning, I find that the subway is actually busier north of Bloor. I had to wait for the third train on Monday to squish in, and two trains today. Once we hit Bloor, the car gets less crowded. (This is down at the "front" (i.e. south end) of the train. I know that the North end of the train ("the tail") never really seems to empty out).

A Don Mills line would hopefully draw some of the traffic off.
 
Yeah, it depends on the time of day and the location on the train. Northbound in the afternoon, Yonge is busier south of Bloor than north of Bloor. The northern half of Yonge trains is also busier than the southern half, pretty much along the whole route.
 
I also board the subway at the south end of St. Clair and usually I have to push my way in. People grunt, but I have as much of a right to board the train as the do. South of Bloor, the crowds thin out. I don't get why so many people crowd the north end of the train to save 2 minutes. It causes everyone frustration.
 
if you look at the logistics of the system, just simply look at where the bus terminal exits are situated along the north end of the line:

St Clair - South End of Platform
Davisville - South End of Platform
Eglinton - South End of Platform
Lawrence - South End of Platform
York Mills - North End of Platform
Sheppard - North End of Platform
Finch - Middle of Platform

As you can see, the terminal exits are mostly at the south end, which is why the trains are so packed on the south end in the mornings as people scramble from the bus to get on a train before it leaves. Moving the Eglinton terminal to the south end only exacerbated the problem, luckily that will be improved once it moves back to the centre of the platform when the new bus terminal is constructed with the redevelopment of the space vacated by the old one.

This situation kind of helps the situation for when southbound trains arrive at Bloor, but of course, the best solution is for riders to just learn to spread out along the length of the platform.

Hopefully when the new full length artic trains arrive in a couple years it'll help alleviate some of the crowding
 
If they spread out along the length of the platform, even more will end up on the northern half, which tends to already be full by York Mills.
 
Heh, I'm one of those Shepperd people and can tell you straight out that with the new density of condos going up along young and finch and the shepperd area it's going to get a whole lot worst before it gets better. I always get out the door 5 minutes earlier than I need to so I can ride the train north to Finch station to get a seat and not be squished.

Over the past 2 years I've been riding the subway downtown this way I can verify that it is getting worst. 2 years ago you could feasibly get a seat in the south 3 cars with regularity. Since about spring 2007, subway cars are getting filled up at just the Finch station alone. By the time it hits Shepperd-Young (especially if a Shepperd train has just stopped) the train is packed like sardines.

Another problem is of course "emergency stops" which backlog the system terribly. In any case once all the new condos along Young-Finch and Shpperd east of Young get built in 2009-2011 the subway system as is will buckle very badly, new higher capacity trains or not...

Despite naysayers, the Shepperd subway station was not a mistake, except ending it to early. I remember having to ride the bus when going to York U. Rush hour in the mournings made it awfully bad. What takes me 10 minutes by subway (from don mills to Shepperd-Young) used to take me 45min-1hour+. When all those new condos go up it'll be even worst.

The reality is, the city traffic is going to prevent Toronrto from getting bigger and better in 3-4 years time. I'm not just talking about the TTC but the whole traffic grid in general. Reality is road lanes are going to have to have to hit 3 lanes with 1 lane dedicated only to the TTC during rush hour. Problem with that need is that a lot of places are narrow. Mayhaps the city needs to reclaim some land from property owners?

The city really needs to deal with this sprawling very soon. The cheapest way would obviously be to make 1 lane for buses only during rush hours (aka more diamond lanes and express buses) but this is only a temporary solution at best. Your still going to have major crowding at major cross section routes.

If subways are too expensive and big, maybe it's time to reexamine underground LRT /streetcar routes? They would be much smaller. A few of them shuttling people to the bloor line might help.

Or if we were going to be really creative (and future thinking) then maybe the city should think about decentralization of the core. In other words, give incentives to companies that put up offices in less dense areas and builders to build in those areas. If you make traffic flow in all directions at rush hour instead of just one you can effectively grow the city so long as you have undeveloped land. You'd also revitalize areas and stabalize land values.

The side benefits are increased tax base, not needing to restructure current roadways, the private sector paying most of the upfront costs, working poor arn't punished and routes that the TTC used to lose a lot on would actually be feasible.
 
Despite naysayers, the Shepperd subway station was not a mistake, except ending it to early. I remember having to ride the bus when going to York U. Rush hour in the mournings made it awfully bad. What takes me 10 minutes by subway (from don mills to Shepperd-Young) used to take me 45min-1hour+. When all those new condos go up it'll be even worst.
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Sheppard may not be a mistake but may seem that way to anyone who doesn't need it as part of their daily commute. Sadly 40, 000 isn't a high figure in a system responsible for nearly 1.2 million daily riders. It'll be very hard to convince politicians to expand it much farther (VP seems like the closest thing to a realistic terminus right now) as even surface routes filtering out from it are rarely packed to capacity besides the 25.

If subways are too expensive and big, maybe it's time to reexamine underground LRT /streetcar routes? They would be much smaller. A few of them shuttling people to the bloor line might help.
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Underground LRT/streetcar routes only beg the question: why not just build subways in the first place as ridership growth will only result in those lines becoming overcapacitated within years of start of operation? That's what I don't get about the Eglinton Crosstown proposal. Subwaylike demand and station spacing will likely occur throughout the Black Creek to Leslie St section with even makeshift bus terminals placed in Forset Hill and Leaside to alleviate Eglinton West/Eglinton. Hence in the long the eventual conversion to subway will exceed any cost savings achieved by going the LRT route first.

Or if we were going to be really creative (and future thinking) then maybe the city should think about decentralization of the core. In other words, give incentives to companies that put up offices in less dense areas and builders to build in those areas. If you make traffic flow in all directions at rush hour instead of just one you can effectively grow the city so long as you have undeveloped land. You'd also revitalize areas and stabalize land values.
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The incentive for business owners would be a rapid transit link, build it and they will come.
 
What takes me 10 minutes by subway (from don mills to Shepperd-Young) used to take me 45min-1hour+. When all those new condos go up it'll be even worse.
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But Steve Munro tells us that, as a Sheppard resident, you're upset about the new subway. Travel time doesn't matter, but you now have to walk to a subway station instead of just to a bus stop at the end of your street.
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
Sheppard may not be a mistake but may seem that way to anyone who doesn't need it as part of their daily commute. Sadly 40, 000 isn't a high figure in a system responsible for nearly 1.2 million daily riders. It'll be very hard to convince politicians to expand it much farther (VP seems like the closest thing to a realistic terminus right now) as even surface routes filtering out from it are rarely packed to capacity besides the 25.
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The only mistake was not building it straight from Downsview to STC. 4X,000 is the threshold by which so many people gauge the validity of future higher order projects, yet only the Yonge line north of Finch will go forward if it is used since no other subway, streetcar, or bus routes can match that number. Clearly, there's more involved than that.

Even after being partially converted to subway, the Sheppard corridor east of Don Mills still sees bus ridership of ~35,000. By the time a subway is finished (if started today, even), there'd be almost continuous towers between Don Mills and STC. There's no question that it would be well used from Scarborough to Downsview.
 
But scarberiankhatru... I bet you might even be able to get a seat off-peak! That would make it a colossal failure.
 
How old is that 40,000 people per day figure on the Sheppard subway? I ride it twice a week now from Yonge to Don Mills to get to the neck treatment clinic and as a casual observer it seems much busier than any figure adding up to 40,000 riders a day. I'm a strong advocate of subways. I'd like to see Sheppard completed to STC, an Eglinton & Queen Street line and forward thinking on planning a route from King or Union along Lakeshore Blvd. E. then connecting up into Coxwell or Main St. station. Ya, I'm a dreamer.

Oh, and that Don Mills bus station under Fairview Mall's parking lot is downright unhealthy. The bus fumes are overwhelming, you can even see blue exhaust fumes waffling under the mercury vapor lights in that dark pit. It nearly makes me physically ill standing in there waiting for a bus.
 
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