[Hypnotoad]

Even after being partially converted to subway, the Sheppard corridor east of Don Mills still sees bus ridership of ~35,000. By the time a subway is finished (if started today, even), there'd be almost continuous towers between Don Mills and STC. There's no question that it would be well used from Scarborough to Downsview.

Preaching the choir. STC - Consumers - NYCC - Downsview is a proper alternative to driving for a lot of motorists and links several destinations and completes a subway grid. I'd take your position on step further and extend the line north to conclude at York University to avoid transfers at Downsview and establish York as a major hub.

There are statistics somewhere on this board that says Consumers has the highest density of any non-subway node. I don't know if that is true, because as Homer says, 30% of all statistics are made up, 64% of all people know that. But what would make the completed Sheppard line extremely viable is that it offers inner-suburb commuters an alternative to driving on the 401. The density will come and the destinations will establish themselves if planned properly.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Half of this choir would rather be in the orchestra, or off sailing, or something...there is no "choir" concensus here.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Half of this choir would rather be in the orchestra, or off sailing, or something...there is no "choir" concensus here.

Of course there isn't, but I was refering to myself. But you did notice that I was agreeing with your points, right?

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Preaching the choir. STC - Consumers - NYCC - Downsview is a proper alternative to driving for a lot of motorists and links several destinations and completes a subway grid.

There are statistics somewhere on this board that says Consumers has the highest density of any non-subway node.

That's why I'm figuring Victoria Park will be pegged as the easternmost subway terminus. 2003 figures had a two stop extension around 500 million. If a "complete" subway grid were to be made of the Sheppard corridor, the line would have to reach Markham Rd then loop its way back to McCowan/Ellesmere. It'd be too expensive for some, too circuitous for others.

However a shorter extension (Phase 1 if you will) with exits facing VP and Pharmacy, would at least get commuters to the Scarborough border where several DM bound buses could be rerouted (10, 24A, 224, 139, 167, 169, 190 PLUS rerouting of 122 and 67).

With higher priority lines yet to be built, a LRT down the median of Sheppard doesn't look too bad, especially if spaced out like a subway- Warden, Birchmount, Kennedy, Agincourt, Brimley, McCowan, Shorting and Markham. A right-of-way from this point could shuttle commuters to STC via Milner, Progress campus, Markham/Ellesmere and Bellamy.

 

[ShonTron]

I completely agree with even a short extension of the Sheppard line to Victoria Park. Going this far makes the line so much more useful than it is now, as Don Mills is such an artificial terminus. Victoria Park feels more like a "natural" terminus. The new Vic Park station can be built to accomodate an easy connection with any LRT (assuming there are no medium-term plans to extend Sheppard further). Consumers Road is also a natural area for office intensification, and is pretty important already.

Though while I generally like Transit City, some routes need to be subway. Sheppard, to Vic Park at the minimum is one, as is the DRL. I also see a lot of sense in bringing Sheppard west to Downsview as well, even though it might not be a "success", if only to make the subway a true system.

DRL and Sheppard extensions (and B-D should go farther into Scarborough) would, combined with Transit City and real regional rail, would bring the transit system back to where it should have been in 2000. Eglinton is the only other immediately logical subway, but the underground LRT isn't that bad an alternative.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree for the most part, SeanTrans. I like Transit City on routes (obviously assuming -- a big assumption -- that the TTC will run the streetcars properly) such as Finch West and Kingston. I need to see much more detail, but I think that the Eglinton LRT could work well, too, as long as the focus is on travel time.

I think that subway should be built at an absolute minimum from Don Mills to STC. Soberman and his ilk seem to think that it's somehow a bad idea to run Sheppard to STC, even though the latter is obviously the centre of Scarborough and by far the largest trip generator. They prefer running east into low-density housing on Sheppard. I also think that the DRL and the route up Don Mills should be subway (with an elevated alignment north of the Don Valley). I support all of the MoveOntario 2020 subway routes as well.

The aspect of Transit City that I find quite crazy are the three billion dollars worth of routes to Malvern (a community of about 30,000) that somehow still manage to miss Malvern Centre. Morningside is a pretty wacky route for streetcars, as it runs in large part through forest and low-density housing, and would provide a ridiculously long trip to the subway down Kingston and Eglinton to Kennedy Station. Clearly, people would still take the 38 from UTSC, the only major trip generator on the route, to STC. In fact, Ellesmere makes more sense to me as a streetcar route than Morningside, considering that it sees three full-service bus routes.

On-street LRT makes much more sense to me as a feeder route to the subway than as a long-distance route. Even if the TTC learns how to run them properly, a St. Clair-style ROW will never provide long-distance travel times competitive with the subway.

The craziest idea is the RT extension that the TTC dug out from the 80s. They call it a Malvern extension, even though Sheppard and Markham is hardly Malvern. The route was originally planned to connect with a massive Consumers Road-style office park at that intersection, even though the plans were abandoned almost two decades ago and the site built out with some townhouses and a Chinese community centre. There's quite simply nothing of any significance there, and the only benefit would be saving a few minutes on a couple of bus routes. The extension would also likely cost (with the TTC's inflated construction costs) at the very least about $800 million. On the other hand, the TTC could just as easily replace the RT with the subway to STC and perhaps improve bus service to Malvern by running Neilson in shoulder bus lanes along the 401, all of this costing significantly less than the RT refurbishment and extension. This would provide major travel time and reliability benefits to all of northern and eastern Scarborough, rather than just benefits for a tiny area around Sheppard and Markham.

One of the TTC's biggest problems is its insistence on gold plating every subway project. I read the study for the VCC extension, and it examines an elevated route from York to VCC, but dismisses it because it would mean slight operational inconveniences. Sure, it would be slightly inconvenient, but they never even mention the potential for hundreds of millions of dollars in savings that would more than offset any inconvenience.

The projects I'd like to see built in the short term:

• Downtown Relief Line subway from Dundas West to Union to Pape and up Don Mills
• Yonge subway extension to Langstaff
• York U/VCC extension (built elevated north of York)
• Replacement of SRT with subway extension, possibly coupled with feeder streetcars to Malvern, east on Ellesmere, and on McCowan
• Transit City routes on Finch West, Kingston, Eglinton, St. Clair, and maybe Jane
• Massive GO improvements too numerous to mention (S-Bahn style service on all routes and full integration with TTC)
• Sheppard from Yonge to STC, and perhaps west to Downsview
• Conversion of Queen and King to one-way operation with two streetcar lanes, one traffic lane, and one parking lane (with traffic at rush hour)
• A GPS monitoring system to provide real transit priority on all major routes
• The various 905 MoveOntario2020 routes
• The re-alignment of the improved Milton line up Hurontario to MCC and west along 403 to rejoin existing route

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The Sheppard subway shouldn't stop at Victoria Park (Don Mills is a more natural terminus) when a more logical and viable terminus is Agincourt/Kennedy...and, from there, it might as well run 2 more km and go to STC (definitely not to Malvern). We're not talking about 20 km of subway through cornfields, here...Don Mills to STC is only 8km and there's already significant population and employment bases at each stop (well, not in the Midland & Progress zone, not yet). Sheppard East is certainly more developed than any other place slated for subways - or any place that got subways outside of the YUS loop. This is one case where the Transit City suggestion, its rationale, and the minds behind it are all completely wrong...yet it's still not as ridiculous as what's planned for precious Malvern.

As has been mentioned before, it would be weird for STC to be approached from the west by subway before the south (downtown) but that doesn't reduce the value of the Sheppard extension.

Of course there isn't, but I was refering to myself.

The only person who can form a choir by himself is this cetaceous fellow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71kdU6iGjTM

 

[rpgr]

I'll also agree with an extension to Victoria Park or actually a little bit further although for slightly different but not exactly unrelated reasons.

VP is notorious for both density and SAFETY. I swear, you get more crashes there than any other point in Shepperd (hence the desire for a traffic circle there). IMO the circle from Finch to Downsview needs to be completed and Shepperd extended. You don't really need a subway all the way to SCC, the route is served well enough by the 190 and the 85. A victoria park extension would help cool the traffic in that area and work as a fairly good hub (inside the consumers circle). The reason for the need for Finch and Downsview to be completed is to hopefully draw a crowd away from the Finch section.

As I said before, after 2010 the Finch line will completely buckle. There will be 0 chance of anyone getting on that train. It's already terrible (as in some people need to wait 3-5 trains before squeezing on) at Young and Bloor. Imagine the density with all those new condos coming up at Young and Finch, Shepperd and as I am reminded when i look out my office window new Young and Bloor condos.

A lot of lanes really need to be widened to 3 lanes with diamond lanes or bus lanes during rush hour. Subway extensions alone won't cut it and a need to decentralize the core so that traffic flows all ways.

 

[rpgr]

The Sheppard subway shouldn't stop at Victoria Park (Don Mills is a more natural terminus) when a more logical and viable terminus is Agincourt/Kennedy...and, from there, it might as well run 2 more km and go to STC (definitely not to Malvern). We're not talking about 20 km of subway through cornfields, here...Don Mills to STC is only 8km and there's already significant population and employment bases at each stop (well, not in the Midland & Progress zone, not yet). Sheppard East is certainly more developed than any other place slated for subways - or any place that got subways outside of the YUS loop. This is one case where the Transit City suggestion, its rationale, and the minds behind it are all completely wrong...yet it's still not as ridiculous as what's planned for precious Malvern.

Heh, I'd love if they did this for myself as I bought a condo at metrogate which was the planned hub for GO and TTC trains. As much as I'd like this plan, however that 8km meets the problem of the highway only the width of fairview mall away. It'll be difficult to build an extension either above or below it and that alone would cost major amounts of money (at least with the way the city handles money).

 

[Panzerfaust]

How about a compromise? Build the LRT first. Once funding becomes available, build the subway to STC. It breaks off from Sheppard Avenue just after Agincourt, so build an underground transfer facility at Agincourt Station and run the LRT from there east. Either keep the ROW from Don Mills to Agincourt for the Sheppard East bus (which would still have to run due to the station spacing methinks) or turn them into HOV lanes.

That's how I would do it anyway.

 

[unimaginative2]

The problem is that we've seen with the RT that once one higher-order transit facility is built, it tends to stay that way forever. There's no such thing as this "logical progression through modes" that LRT fans seem to love. It just doesn't happen. Nobody is going to support a subway on Sheppard after we've already spent almost a billion on an LRT.

As for the section east of Kennedy, I just frankly don't think the route merits higher-order transit. There's really nothing of consequence there, and Sheppard peters out quite quickly into Rouge Park. Beyond there, it's the greenbelted Duffins Rouge Agricultural Preserve, which recent lawsuits have ensured will never be developed. Sheppard east of Kennedy is pretty low-priority for higher-order transit. I'm sure McCowan north from STC would get far higher ridership.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There's no funding for subways but cash for LRT grows on trees.

"LRT first" = "subway never."

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Going this far makes the line so much more useful than it is now, as Don Mills is such an artificial terminus. Victoria Park feels more like a "natural" terminus.

That's what I was thinking. Compared to DM, VP is far more geared towards handling heavy duty transit (6 lanes, more commercial than resdential) hence making a serious case for ending the subway at since BRT lanes could be routed from there along the 401 straight into STC. If the demand for direct and express service betwwen North York Centre and Scarborough Centre is so high, then I don't see why billions more should be wasted on a subway through nowhere. East of VP, there's only two major pockets of density, Agincourt and the McCowan to Progress area. Does that seriously need of a subway to reach?

The aspect of Transit City that I find quite crazy are the three billion dollars worth of routes to Malvern (a community of about 30,000) that somehow still manage to miss Malvern Centre. Morningside is a pretty wacky route for streetcars, as it runs in large part through forest and low-density housing, and would provide a ridiculously long trip to the subway down Kingston and Eglinton to Kennedy Station. Clearly, people would still take the 38 from UTSC, the only major trip generator on the route, to STC. In fact, Ellesmere makes more sense to me as a streetcar route than Morningside, considering that it sees three full-service bus routes.

Transit City has alot of illogical aspects to it. The Sheppard branch could/should veer up Neilson and directly serve the Town Centre then align with Midtown CP? to Finch and Morningside. Hence the Morningside wye wouldn't have to go north of Ellesmere (demand around Sheppard/Morningside is very minimal) and could instead run directly into the UTSC campus.

As for Kingston south of Eglinton, it too should've been apart of TC all the way into downtown wyeing on it's own from around Queen/River to Union Stn. directly serving the East Bayfront revitalization, Distillery, St Lawrence and Queens Quay en route.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't see why billions more should be wasted on a subway through nowhere. East of VP, there's only two major pockets of density, Agincourt and the McCowan to Progress area.

Going east from Don Mills, there's 3 major nodes of density: the Consumers office park, Agincourt, and STC. These areas are also seeing more development - thousands of new residents, possibly tens of thousands by the time a subway is finished. In 20 years, the three will become one long corridor with almost continuous towers. If this short 7km stretch is your idea of "nowhere," what would be your idea of a denser "somewhere"? It's got more somewheres than the Spadina extension ever will. Sheppard does become nowhere-ish east of here, but I don't think the line should run that far.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Going east from Don Mills, there's 3 major nodes of density: the Consumers office park, Agincourt, and STC. These areas are also seeing more development - thousands of new residents, possibly tens of thousands by the time a subway is finished. In 20 years, the three will become one long corridor with almost continuous towers. If this short 7km stretch is your idea of "nowhere," what would be your idea of a denser "somewhere"? It's got more somewheres than the Spadina extension ever will. Sheppard does become nowhere-ish east of here, but I don't think the line should run that far.

Agreed but why as a subway? They're a financial bleed on the system. For billions less Sheppard East (even a westernly extension to Downsview) could see subway levels of service (frequency of every 2 mins) via a LRT. The only area lacking would be the number of passengers being carried per trip, but since LRTs carry more people than buses, no biggie. The subway should go to at least Pharmacy but thereafter? There's still about a 2km gap from there to Kennedy and yet another 3-4kms gap to STC. That's about as wasteful as running a subway from Kipling to Hurontario bypassing even Sherway. Subways as far I'm concerned should end with the Hwy 7 extensions since only downtown currently has the capacity to sustain them.