No, running the subway east of Pharmacy is not equivalent to running Kipling out to Hurontario, a route that's twice as far and with <50% less existing or potential density. If Sheppard East can't sustain a subway, no other place in the entire city north of Bloor that isn't reliant on funnelling in feeder buses to boost ridership figures (including Yonge north of Finch, Eglinton, etc.) does, either. Running a subway there would virtually guarantee North York Centre levels of redevelopment...it's already begun in anticipation of the line. This is one place where we should spend a bit more upfront to reap massive benefits.

You also seem to think there must be "density" between stations for a line to be viable. When almost everything will be within 500m of a station, are there any gaps at all? Let's see...a Consumers stop would serve a large office park, as would a Victoria Park stop, which would also serve the VP bus and a tower cluster. Yes, there's currently what you'd call a development gap around Warden, but should the area not see much redevelopment, the Warden bus would more than make up for that. An Allanford/Agincourt Mall stop would be very well-used. Throw in a stop at the Stouffville/Midtown GO intersection, turning it into a real transit hub, and the only other "gap" is the proposed stop near Midland & Progress. There's 1km of industrial wasteland here and this stop wouldn't see high ridership without redevelopment...but why does one potentially underused station unjustify the entire extension? You might as well suggest the Danforth line should never have been built because of the gap between Parliament and Broadview.
 
Why a subway? Because in some crazy world, it makes sense to extend an existing line rather than graft on a different technology.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Why a subway? Because in some crazy world, it makes sense to extend an existing line rather than graft on a different technology.
Click to expand...
Your logic is not welcome here! Sheppard will not be complete until we run the subway to Don Mills, the LRT to Kennedy, ICTS to Markham, and some sort of Maglev to Morningside. Of course, there must be provision for a future horsecar operation to the zoo, with a possible DMU branch down to Rouge Hill further ahead still.

I know I'm exaggerating, but I don't see the point in forcing a transfer to a different technology at the artificial terminus that is Don Mills. Build the subway now and they will come. On top of that, look at what surrounds most of the Bloor-Danforth. I see a whole lot of lowrise development and low-density residential. The buses are the major feeders to the line. Who's to say Sheppard won't end up the same way? I know that people coming in from the north on buses that want to go downtown will be transferring onto it, as well as Scarborough residents who want to head uptown and midtown workers who want to avoid the Kennedy transfer. A subway's success is not determined solely by the presence of high-density development surrounding it. The Bloor-Danforth and most of the Yonge Line north of Eglinton proved that, at least at the time of their construction.

Would I say LRT if I could go back to the early 90s? Hell yes, LRT should have been on Sheppard from day one. Cutting off the subway at Don Mills when densification has already started in anticipation of the line is not the way to go, however. Sheppard will forever be known as a subway to nowhere unless we make it go somewhere, and Scarborough Centre meets my definition of somewhere.
 
Yes, build the subway now and they will come, but in the case of Sheppard east of Don Mills to STC, they're already there...
 
Running a subway there would virtually guarantee North York Centre levels of redevelopment...it's already begun in anticipation of the line. This is one place where we should spend a bit more upfront to reap massive benefits.
Click to expand...

Well I didn't consider that. I was looking more at figures of the relatively low demand for 85/190 during off-peak most days plus the half-empty trains pulling in at Don Mills, picking up or dropping off virtually <20% of total ridership per trip at the intermediate stops. It functions essentially as a Point-A to Point-B service, more like surface commuter rail, not node intensification-oriented subways.

It still would not be comparable to BD in terms of getting full-way across the city so the only reason to expand Sheppard is because as you've said it's already there and development's starting in anticipation of an extension.


but why does one potentially underused station unjustify the entire extension?
Click to expand...

Not the station(s), the miles of underground tracks at $500 million/km. If the entire MoveOntario budget went to Toronto/York Region alone we'd scarcely get all these proposed lines built and at no improvement to the existing infrastructure.

What are you talking about? The subway system is the only reason the TTC has one of the highest cost-recovery ratio in North America.
Click to expand...

I hyperbolize. What I meant was the money going towards building new subways subtracts from quality of service (no replacement of old vehicles, raised fares, labor union politics, rennovation of stations). If the past summer's any indication, Sheppard will likely be sacrifical lambed again at the expense of the 905 extensions.
 
They're spending just under a billion on this LRT from Don Mills to STC, so wouldn't it make much more sense to spend $1.5 billion and have a continuous line without an orphan streetcar branch?
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
Well I didn't consider that. I was looking more at figures of the relatively low demand for 85/190 during off-peak most days plus the half-empty trains pulling in at Don Mills, picking up or dropping off virtually <20% of total ridership per trip at the intermediate stops. It functions essentially as a Point-A to Point-B service, more like surface commuter rail, not node intensification-oriented subways.

It still would not be comparable to BD in terms of getting full-way across the city so the only reason to expand Sheppard is because as you've said it's already there and development's starting in anticipation of an extension.
Click to expand...

Yonge to Don Mills is mostly point to point, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the viability of extending the line further east, where it's obvious common knowledge that the stops will be well-used because of bus connections and because of high existing densities. Every route has low demand off-peak, that's why they call it off-peak. We must build the system to peak standards, though. And if terminus stations were full, how the hell would someone get on along the way? Half empty trains are required at the end for the line to function.

Very few people actually ride B/D from Kennedy to Kipling...just because there aren't a lot of people in Malvern that want to go to Rexdale (although I know some personally) doesn't mean lots of people won't use it between STC and Downsview or any random points along the way. Across the city doesn't literally mean acorss the city.

DENTROBATE54 said:
Not the station(s), the miles of underground tracks at $500 million/km.
Click to expand...

Since when did Canada adopt Zimbabwe's inflation rate?
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
It still would not be comparable to BD in terms of getting full-way across the city so the only reason to expand Sheppard is because as you've said it's already there and development's starting in anticipation of an extension.

If the past summer's any indication, Sheppard will likely be sacrifical lambed again at the expense of the 905 extensions.
Click to expand...

No, it's way too late for that now. The development on Sheppard is breathtaking right now. The single family homes I've seen blocked up, condemned, and pulled down in favour of condos that will put five, ten times as many people on the same land is astounding. And I think that's partly due to the new line. People know they can move there and not necessarily have to use their cars (or sit for hours on a bus) to get to work. That it's to the advantage of that part of the city is deeply impressed on me. I think we should close the loop to the Spadina line and extended it east to serve Scarborough.
 
Prometheus The Supremo said:
how many people coming from sheppard east go to york U? maybe it would be a good idea to extend the sheppard line to the spadina line if the numbers are there or will be there if it were built.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of kids crossing North York from Scarborough to get to York, but it's a fair question. I do know a lot of people in Scarborough are chuffed that the subway ends at Fairview and doesn't even make the gesture of kissing Vic Park Ave.; kind of, you know, "Did Mel realize we're here too?"
 
Hmm. Chuffed means 'very pleased'.

42
 
interchange42 said:
Hmm. Chuffed means 'very pleased'.

42
Click to expand...

Does it? :) I wasn't paying close enough attention when it was being tossed around at scotch-addled weddings, apparently.

Okay... Scarberians anti-chuffed by short subway!
 
I do know a lot of people in Scarborough are chuffed that the subway ends at Fairview and doesn't even make the gesture of kissing Vic Park Ave.; kind of, you know, "Did Mel realize we're here too?"
Click to expand...

Phase One was always intended to head to Victoria Park. It's only due to lack of funds they stopped short and Don Mills did have that "Yorkdale-ish" gene-se-qua a suburban terminus needs.

but that has absolutely nothing to do with the viability of extending the line further east, where it's obvious common knowledge that the stops will be well-used because of bus connections and because of high existing densities. Every route has low demand off-peak, that's why they call it off-peak.
Click to expand...

But then wouldn't the Sheppard East LRT still be needed between Midland and Meadowvale? From Agincourt one's still about 20 mins away from Malvern/ Centennial College. The only on-Sheppard benefactors of the extension are essentially the business park and Agincourt. As for demand, at all hours of operation (even late evenings) BD is always moderate to densely packed between Coxwell-Keele. The contrast to 85/190 is that they operate in the path of a proposed subway line, so if demand is sparse now how promising will it be as a subway?

I think a west-east line along Eglinton would generate higher ridership due to closer proximity to the downtown and could service the STC via SRT@ Kennedy. More people use the Eglinton corridor today than Sheppard+SRT combined and I'm just saying but I am quite skeptical of a subway that's wholeheartedly reliant on condo-dwellers to form the bulk of ridership with proximity to the 401 and abundance of parking spaces to consider.

Since when did Canada adopt Zimbabwe's inflation rate?
Click to expand...
:eek:

They're spending just under a billion on this LRT from Don Mills to STC, so wouldn't it make much more sense to spend $1.5 billion
Click to expand...

1.5? Isn't the York U extension going to cost like 4 billion? I think the extension is around the same length (8 kms).
 
DENTROBATE54 said:
I think a west-east line along Eglinton would generate higher ridership due to closer proximity to the downtown and could service the STC via SRT@ Kennedy. More people use the Eglinton corridor today than Sheppard+SRT combined and I'm just saying but I am quite skeptical of a subway that's wholeheartedly reliant on condo-dwellers to form the bulk of ridership with proximity to the 401 and abundance of parking spaces to consider.
Click to expand...


I always wonder where do people get that more people use Eglington more than Shepperd? From what I've seen during rush hour, Eglington station isn't packed, not even close compared to Young/Shepperd (even before the Shepperd extension about 9 years ago). With the extension, it isn't even close. Currently Young/Shepperd station rivals Finch stations in terms of density of travellers (although I still give Finch a slight nod). With all the new condos going up in both sections, forget about riding the subway in 2010, they'll be packed during rush hour.

Besides Eglington is farily close to all lines. You can go south to the Bloor line, there is also access to the Spadina line and the Young line.

A line to York U is a big mistake though. You'll have 0 ridership during summer although a further extension North I do think is a good idea but I'd rather they sacrifice a couple of stations going North towards York U to close the loop between Finch and Downsview (or make sure a complete loop is made with whatever new northerly connections the proposed line will make).

Eglington is just too close to the core to merit the need for a subway. I'm not necessarily stating that Shepperd was the best answer as opposed to Finch (which *could* have created the semi loop and a route on Finch would better serve those in the 905 region if it ran the full east/west line).

In any case, if it was 7-9 years ago and I was mayor having both funding (though not unlimited) and good judgement/foresight, I would've built it on Finch. During the time Shepperd was proposed though, the thinking was that the monorail system needed to be scrapped soon (and it still does due to age) and a full Shepperd East line would be what would replace it.

The current windfall of the Shepperd line is a lot of new development along the corridor.

I'm still worried about what will happen to the Young subway line though. As is I can't see the subway running any faster than it is already during rush hour. With all the intensification by 2010 the Young line might was well become Finch > NYC > Shepperd > Bloor. Anything between Shepperd and Bloor might as well be dumped onto buses / LRT as your not going to be getting on any trains (think of the headaches Young/Bloor is now and start moving that north quite a few stations possibly to Eglington and that's if your lucky).
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top