[vatche]

I totally agree with you. We r trying to compete with cities like ny and London and Paris and we frankly cannot. These cities r huge, cultural, political and financial cities. On the other hand we r just a big city. So we shouldn't even try to compete with them. Btw Chicago does not attract a lot of international tourists. The tourists there r typically from the surrounding Midwestern cities. The 3 major tourist destinations in north America r and will always be new York, for it's u know what, Florida, for it's beaches and California, for it's Hollywood affiliation. Just like in Europe, Paris and London r the main tourist destinations and all of the others r second rate destinations.

 

[Nick.]

Toronto needs major new attractions, attractions that would be recognized and known throughout the world. Collectively, the staff at the Days Hotel and Conference Centre Toronto Downtown came up with the following ideas:

A world-class aquarium on the waterfront.

A casino on the waterfront or the Exhibition Grounds, possibly at one end of the Toronto Islands. Why build it at Woodbine? Bring people downtown.

Create direct high-speed service from Pearson airport to downtown Toronto.

from the op, in 2007. makes you think...

 

[James]

It takes a lot of variables to turn a city into a top tourist destination. There are many world-class cities all over the world, each with very different factors that make it a tourist destination. A city can't be a top tourist spot based on attractions alone. The whole experience has to be there, from the arts, the culture, the people, the atmosphere, the scenery, etc. Toronto has the CN Tower, some arts & entertainment, some festivals, ... We have a little bit of everything but I think we need to excel in a couple more areas, be it the arts (what's going on with Hollywood North anyway?) or attractions (Ripley's Aquarium?).

One of the things that major world cities like NYC, Tokyo or London have is that there is so much well within a visitor's grasp. A simple short walk or a quick hop on the subway and you're at the next destination. In Toronto, one can walk a certain distance within the downtown core but eventually you'll have to take the subway and/or bus/streetcar. If we are to be a world class city, we really need a world class transit system. Imagine if tourists can easily access the Rouge Valley or the Bluffs or the David Dunlap Observatory or Edwards Gardens...

 

[jn_12]

I'll preface this by saying I've worked at both the city and provincial level in tourism policy/research as well as having done a masters with a focus on tourism policy... so this isn't just coming out of no where.

The thing with Toronto's tourism is that being a newer city we lack something more iconic, beside the CN Tower, that distinguish Toronto from everyone else. Even a cliche tourist trap is better than nothing at all. People need to associate something special with Toronto and just Toronto to visit us, rather than, say Chicago or San Francisco.

Well if you want something iconic look no further than Niagara Falls. That's a pretty massive tourism draw, and both Toronto and Niagara should be working closer to promote the connection between both destinations as they both have a lot to offer. Furthermore, I think you're really over-estimating the importance of mass tourism, which has been in huge decline. People are seeking unique experiences, not something they can see on google street view.

Being close to Lake Ontario apparently hasn't become a selling point when it comes to tourism at all. Nobody is gonna rank Toronto' waterfront scene in terms of beauty ahead of Chicago's, which is closeby, not to mention so many large cities are either by the sea or by a river. Water is NOT special.

If you're going to compare Toronto's waterfront to the greatest waterfront in the world, then of course we'll look bad. If tourists only travelled to the places with the best ______ then tourism wouldn't be growing nearly as much as it is.

Our museums are second class just to be very honest, and they charge an arm and a leg, compared with the Metropolitan, MoMa, even le Louvre etc. Don't make excuses such as we are less subsidized etc. The tourists don't care. The sheer fact that Casa Loma charges $18 is pretty shocking in terms of what it offers. Even our super mini "shoe museum", which takes about 20 minutes to see, charges $14 if I am not mistaken. For someone well travelled, why should tourists spend $14 in that, compared with le Louvre, which charges similar price (10 euro)?

Because tourists don't care about cost. They understand that these sites cost money and they don't compare their options with international options. Again, you're comparing our assets to the best in the world, which is unfair. Furthermore, I think they offer many things that those museums don't offer and that's a focus on local art/history. Sure we don't have the Mona Lisa, but we have the Group of Seven, and you can't just see those pieces of art anywhere.

Yes, we have vibrant "neighbourhoods", but just by looking at how many other cities claim themselves to be "a city of neibourhoods" we can know that won't be a selling point either. How does busy Queen West stack up with SoHo in NYC, Oxford st in London, or Newbury St in Boston? Not that impressive either. Chinatown, Korea Town, Little Italy etc, if you travel enough, you have already seen enough of them, and they are all similar.

In an age of globalization, you're going to find the same stores on all of those streets. I don't know anyone who goes to London to see Oxford St. If they are they'll be utterly disappointed because they can find H&M anywhere. What makes a neighbourhood is the local flavour of it and the sense of place. It's Carnaby St and Kensington Market.

Our architecture is not strong either to be fair. Woodbine Beach is cool for locals, but let's be honest, we are not a tropical resort. People seldom come to Toronto for the beach scene.

People who travel somewhere to seek out interesting architecture find reasons to like architecture they see. Just as we have an entire forum of people who like elements of Toronto architecture, there are people who look to this city and see things they like. And you're right, people don't come here for beaches, just as people don't go to most urban places for beaches unless you're Rio or Miami. You can't expect to please everyone, but if you go just outside the city you'll find some of the worlds best spots for hiking, which Rio and Miami can't offer.

As to the CN tower, all I can say is that it is way too pricy for what it delivers. There are so many really highbuildings for people to go up and see in the world, but CN is one of the most expensive, and there is too little offered at the top there for the hype.

Again, tourists don't care much for price especially when it comes to these mass tourism sites. The other thing you're missing is that it isn't just about the height but what you can see from up there. You get a different view no matter which tall building you visit in the world.

The Hockey Hall of Fame is a very Canadian thing. However, how many hockey fans are there outside Canada? I myself haven't been there due to lack of interest.

If you're from another country, you'd probably find the hockey hall of fame interesting because of your lack of understanding about the sport. It'd be a museum to you in the same way people who aren't normally interested in ancient Egypt might find an ancient Egypt exhibit interesting. It also says a lot about Canada too, which people would find interesting. I've talked to many tourists who don't understand hockey but found the experience enjoyable.

On the other hand, we do have some decent theatres, restaurants etc. But I am afraid that's not enough.

Why not? Surprised you didn't compare our theatres to London or New York to be honest. You seemed to obsessed with people only wanting to see/do the best stuff they can in the world.

Most tourists need something special about a place, something you don't see elsewhere, to be excited about, to take photos of. They don't usually care much about livable neighbourhoods as they are not living here. Even something tacky, let it be a giant ferris wheel, or a 7 star casino, is better than nothing, and I am saying it from a pure tourist perspective, not to say constructing them makes economic sense.

This part displays your lack of understanding of tourism. You seem to have a great grasp of mass tourism, but little do you know that it's actually cultural tourism which is the fastest growing segment worldwide. People ARE interested in livable neighbourhoods (as they create vibrancy) and are avoiding those mass tourism sites you can google and experience rather easily. Hip, trendy, unique and "off the beaten path" are the most sought after tourist destinations. Especially if what you're seeking is quality rather than quantity of tourists (which is what every tourist destination should strive for as it leaves the least destructive impact on a community)

Street events are fun for local residents, but I don't think they help with tourism that much, unless it is really world famous, like the Rio Carnival. Nobody would fly to a foreign country just to see Nuit Blanche or Caribana.

Actually Caribana attracts thousands and thousands of Americans. As for Nuit Blanche, maybe it's not attracting people yet but give it time. the Carnival in Rio has been around for over a hundred years and is the largest event in the world. Again, stopped comparing us to the biggest and best. You're always going to be disappointed otherwise.

All that being said, Toronto doesn't really excel in the tourism section because we don't have enough "touristy", which ordinary people like. If the city does envision to be a bigger tourist city, a lot is needed.

As you can tell, I disagree wholeheartedly. I think what is needed is just a more focused approach to marketing and for government to start taking tourism more seriously (ie. end the high airline taxes, bring back the visitor tax exemptions, make visas easier to get, etc).

 

[nfitz]

For someone well travelled, why should tourists spend $14 in that, compared with le Louvre, which charges similar price (10 euro)?

That argument makes no sense. Why then should tourists spend €10 for the Louvre, when the British Museum is free.

 

[Tulse]

Street events are fun for local residents, but I don't think they help with tourism that much

Toronto's Pride Week is perhaps the largest such event in the world, certainly one of the biggest. And those crowds are not all locals.

 

[Hipster Duck]

We can argue until the sun goes supernova about whether Toronto is a city 'worth' visiting, or not. That's entirely subjective and my own opinion sways back and forth between these two positions.

What is less arguable, however, is that Toronto is an expensive city to visit. Flights to Toronto are expensive from just about anywhere; even if our museums were the best on earth (and, hey, for certain art lovers they might just be) they are among the most expensive on earth, and the high price of things that people tend to enjoy doing on vacation, like drinking booze and shopping for clothes, certainly make Toronto less enticing.

On that last category, Toronto is a pretty lousy deal: we lose millions, if not billions, of dollars due to our lousy, expensive shopping experiences. I know a lot of women who drop thousands of dollars annually in Manhattan and Hong Kong with their better selection, better prices and lower sales taxes. I don't drop thousands on clothes, but whatever I do spend tends to be overseas.

 

[Tewder]

Part of the problem is a simple lack of brand message, and a fundamental lack of identity. It's hard to promote something when you don't really understand it, or necessarily value it.

 

[adma]

Toronto's Pride Week is perhaps the largest such event in the world, certainly one of the biggest. And those crowds are not all locals.

Yeah, but if we want to split hairs a la kkgg7, not all tourists are part of that "lifestyle", or agree with it...

 

[kkgg7]

jn_12, I have been objective in my comment with no home bias, while you apparently have been very protective, particularly in the museum part. $14 for shoe museum, and you think travellers don't care about price. Seriously? If so, why not charge $30, or $50? Your argument doesn't really help. There are many many cities in the world, and travellers all have budgets. Nobody has to come and visit Toronto. People choose where to go based on their own cost-benefit analysis. To say cost is irrelevant for tourists is silly.

You are right that it is not fair to compare elements of Toronto with the best in the world. Not every city can be even compared with Paris or New York, that is true. However, that doesn't change the fact that Toronto lacks, IMO, one very strong selling point in terms of tourism. We have a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but all more or less second or even third class. Nothing really stands out. Every time I have friends who ask where to visit in Canada, I always tell them to visit Montreal/Quebec City if time is limited, because they have something special that you don't see in a typical large north American city. We really don't. That's a fact. It is only a matter of whether we admit it or not. Imagine someone from Asia or Europe with limited budget and schedule, how do you convince him to visit Toronto instead of say NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Los Angeles, San Diego, or Miami? Just to say something like our Kensington Market is so interesting won't help -- these markets are only special in North American cities. In many other parts of the world, these markets are where the vast majority of people shop everyday. When I grew up, my parents always went to markets like these for grocery shopping, and nobody buys groceries, frozen meat and fish from grocery chain stores, simply because they hardly exist. Buying a dead fish that has been frozen for weeks for cooking would be considered ridiculous. Don't want to degrade it, but these markets are really not interesting at all for non-North American travellers.

I completely agree with you on your last comment. The high airline/airport tax is infuriating. Toronto, for what it offers, is really too expensive to visit for travellers.

Fortunately, the city is doing something to help it. The aquarium, for example, adds to the stuff that can be done. Another potential I can see is Toronto Islands, which should be made more interesting. I also hope Yonge st can be cleaned up, as it really doesn't show well. Good thing is it is transforming slowly. We should always remember that a city needs to give potential tourists a reason to go to, over other cites for a limited budget/timeframe. When someone is deciding where to spend 10 days at a cost of $2,000, give him a reason to pick Toronto over others. At least for now, we have trouble doing that.

 

[vatche]

My cousin calls yonge st a "scar" going thru the city. It needs a gut job.

 

[coolcanadian]

There are a lot of wonderful things to do in and around Toronto.

Canada's Wonderland is the most visited seasonal theme park in North America, if not the world. More than Cedar Point and Knott's. In fact, It also holds the record for most roller coasters in a park outside of the United States, with 16. Wonderland has the 2nd most roller coasters out of any park in the world, and the widest variety of coasters. Also, their new coaster under construction will be one of the world's tallest and fastest.

Cedar Fair (the company that owns Wonderland) is planning on investing a lot into Wonderland in the future, which will make it even better.

The Toronto Zoo is the largest zoo in North America, and one of the largest in the world. It's possible sale to an amusement operator will likely make it even better.

The 2.5 million sq/ft Pinewood Studios development with the hotel and movie set/neighbourhood will be something only found in Toronto. Yes, LA has movie sets, but this will be a real neighbourhood. People in the hotel and condos will essentially be living in the set!

The fact that Toronto is one of the most diverse city's in the world is a major tourist attractor! So many different neighbourhoods and cultures of experience in one city!

AGO is a great museum, Edgewalk is a unique and original attraction (Skywalk in Auckland is much smaller)

The Aquarium will be magnificent!

I think our biggest problem is branding/advertising.

http://www.seetorontonow.com/Visitor/Experience/Attractions.aspx

And TIFF is a huge tourist attraction if I'm right. kkgg7, you said events don't attract people.. Ummmmmm TIFF is huge!

Toronto has many new luxury hotels under construction/being planned/recently opened (Trump, Ritz, Shangri-La, Four Seasons, Bisha, Delta in south core, Gansevoort, and more). This will help tourism.

Distillery district is the largest collection of Victorian buildings in North America.

The islands are very unique and fun, and whenever I go it's an amazing experience, right in the city!

We also have the 2nd largest Chinatown in North America.

We are improving.

 

[jn_12]

jn_12, I have been objective in my comment with no home bias, while you apparently have been very protective, particularly in the museum part. $14 for shoe museum, and you think travellers don't care about price. Seriously? If so, why not charge $30, or $50? Your argument doesn't really help. There are many many cities in the world, and travellers all have budgets. Nobody has to come and visit Toronto. People choose where to go based on their own cost-benefit analysis. To say cost is irrelevant for tourists is silly.

Cost isn't an issue, especially when it comes to rather small things like museum entrance fees. Costs such as flights and hotels, sure, but anyone who is spending thousands on a trip does not care about how much value they're getting from admission fees, particularly if they have an interest in coming to this city. I'm not aware of anyone who has based their decision to travel on the price of a museum compared to another one unless their trip is for the specific reason of visiting that type of museum and the only difference between them is admission price. The idea that the difference of a couple dollars between the ROM and the Louvre is enough to deter someone from coming to Toronto is just absurd. And the fact is, even if the ROM was free it wouldn't entice more people to travel here. What kind of person spends $1000+ on a flight an a couple nights in a hotel to save a few bucks on a museum?

There's a reason why tourist traps are expensive. It's because when people are on vacation they tend to have a carefree attitude towards their spending. Mass tourism sites and their surroundings are far more expensive than places that are off the beaten path, which I think says a lot.

You are right that it is not fair to compare elements of Toronto with the best in the world. Nothing every city can be even compared with Paris or New York, that is true. However, that doesn't change the fact that Toronto lacks, from my personal experience, one very strong selling point in terms of tourism. We have a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but all more or less second or even third class. Nothing really stands out. Every time I have friends who ask where to visit in Canada, I always tell them to visit Montreal/Quebec City if time is limited, but they have something special that you don't see in a typical large north American city. We really don't. That's a fact. It is only a matter of whether we admit it or not. Imagine someone from Asia or Europe with limited budget and schedule, how do you convince him to visit Toronto instead of say NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Los Angeles, San Diego, or Miami? Just to say something like our Kensington Market is so interesting won't help -- these markets are only special in North American cities. In many other parts of the world, these markets are where the vast majority of people shop everyday. When I grew up, my parents always went to markets like these for grocery shopping, and nobody buys groceries, frozen meat and fish from grocery chain stores, simply because they hardly exist. Buying a dead fish that has been frozen for weeks for cooking would be considered ridiculous. Don't want to degrade it, but these markets are really not interesting at all for non-North American travellers.

Different people will have different interests. For someone coming from the US (and the US makes up the majority of our visitors) a place like Kensington Market would be quirky and a rather interesting place to visit. The BRIC market is rather untapped, but the Canadian Tourism Commission has done studies with Chinese travellers to determine their interests/travel intentions. Chinese travellers are exactly the type of high-quality tourist Canada should be trying to attract but the problem is what they want to see more of from us is more promotion of our heritage, history and culture, which are all things we're struggling to do. I think primarily it's because (as you're displaying) we don't have a strong sense of pride about ourselves. Museums like the ROM and the AGO and potentially a City of Toronto Museum would help quite a bit in this area. In the meantime, we're lucky to have a very vibrant city that people love. I've talked to many tourists (I spent a whole summer doing just that) and yep, they love Toronto. It's just a matter of getting the word out and finding ways to attract new markets.

Ultimately, I think when you consider any sort of B market, whether it's in North America, Europe, etc. You could always ask yourself "why would someone come here when they could go to _______." People have all sorts of reasons to visit somewhere. It can be something as simple as being a fan of The Beatles and deciding to visit Liverpool (which I did), or simply being curious about the differences between Canada and the US and wanting to see it up close, or hell, maybe they just like waterfalls.

I completely agree with you on your last comment. The high airline/airport tax is infuriating. Toronto, for what it offers, is really too expensive to visit for travellers.

Toronto isn't expensive at all for tourists once you're here. Hotels are very cheap in comparison to cities like Boston and New York, nevermind a place like London. Food, attractions, etc. are all reasonably priced. Sure the exchange rate has recently skewed American perceptions and the value of their dollar here, but globally we're not on the radar of most expensive places to visit.

Fortunately, the city is doing something to help it. The aquarium, for example, adds to the stuff that can be done. Another potential I can see is Toronto Islands, which should be made more interesting. I also hope Yonge st can be cleaned up, as it really doesn't show well. Good thing is it is transforming slowly. We should always remember that a city needs to give potential tourists a reason to go to, over other cites for a limited budget/timeframe. When someone is deciding where to spend 10 days at a cost of $2,000, give him a reason to pick Toronto over others. At least for now, we have trouble doing that.

I could create (and have created) an itinerary for any tourist to spend 10 days here without any problems. There's so much to offer. As I've mentioned in the aquarium thread, the aquarium will be a great addidiotn to the depth of our tourism product but by no means should it be expected to act as one of the jewels of our tourism sector. We're setting ourselves up for disappointment if that's what we expect.

 

[James]

I believe one major avenue in promoting Toronto lies in the film industry. Although cost and permits are certainly a factor, if we're talking about marketing, there needs to be more films that use Toronto as a backdrop a la Woody Allen. I think it's time for a little more shameless self-promoting!

 

[Tulse]

Toronto is also one of the top three English-language theatre cities in the world, only behind London and New York. There are quite a lot of tourist visits to see shows here.