[old boy]

jn_12, I have been objective in my comment with no home bias, while you apparently have been very protective, particularly in the museum part. $14 for shoe museum, and you think travellers don't care about price. Seriously? If so, why not charge $30, or $50? Your argument doesn't really help. There are many many cities in the world, and travellers all have budgets. Nobody has to come and visit Toronto. People choose where to go based on their own cost-benefit analysis. To say cost is irrelevant for tourists is silly.

You are right that it is not fair to compare elements of Toronto with the best in the world. Not every city can be even compared with Paris or New York, that is true. However, that doesn't change the fact that Toronto lacks, IMO, one very strong selling point in terms of tourism. We have a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but all more or less second or even third class. Nothing really stands out. Every time I have friends who ask where to visit in Canada, I always tell them to visit Montreal/Quebec City if time is limited, because they have something special that you don't see in a typical large north American city. We really don't. That's a fact. It is only a matter of whether we admit it or not. Imagine someone from Asia or Europe with limited budget and schedule, how do you convince him to visit Toronto instead of say NYC, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Los Angeles, San Diego, or Miami? Just to say something like our Kensington Market is so interesting won't help -- these markets are only special in North American cities. In many other parts of the world, these markets are where the vast majority of people shop everyday. When I grew up, my parents always went to markets like these for grocery shopping, and nobody buys groceries, frozen meat and fish from grocery chain stores, simply because they hardly exist. Buying a dead fish that has been frozen for weeks for cooking would be considered ridiculous. Don't want to degrade it, but these markets are really not interesting at all for non-North American travellers.

I completely agree with you on your last comment. The high airline/airport tax is infuriating. Toronto, for what it offers, is really too expensive to visit for travellers.

Fortunately, the city is doing something to help it. The aquarium, for example, adds to the stuff that can be done. Another potential I can see is Toronto Islands, which should be made more interesting. I also hope Yonge st can be cleaned up, as it really doesn't show well. Good thing is it is transforming slowly. We should always remember that a city needs to give potential tourists a reason to go to, over other cites for a limited budget/timeframe. When someone is deciding where to spend 10 days at a cost of $2,000, give him a reason to pick Toronto over others. At least for now, we have trouble doing that.

It's nice you point out Montreal/Quebec City to your international friends, but c'mon kkgg7, really. You sound like you're being held in Toronto against your will. Maybe we can start a collection on this site to get you out of this hellhole. Who says TO ain't got heart.

 

[kkgg7]

Toronto is also one of the top three English-language theatre cities in the world, only behind London and New York. There are quite a lot of tourist visits to see shows here.

about this, I did some research and here is what I found:

According to The Broadway League, Broadway shows sold approximately $1.037 billion worth of tickets in calendar year 2010, compared to $1.004 billion for 2009. Total Broadway attendance was 12.11 million in calendar year 2010 compared to 11.88 million in 2009. By way of comparison, London's West End theatre reported total attendance of 14.3 million for major commercial and grant-aided theatres in central London for 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_theatre

On the other hand, in toronto, according to Toronto Alliance for the Performing Arts

1)In the 2007/08 season over 2.4 million single and subscription tickets were sold by TAPA members.
2) Torontonians spent over $152 million on tickets at participating TAPA member companies during the 2007/08 season.
http://www.tapa.ca/communique/press/detail/41/?return=default

So our attendance is about 20% that of NYC/London, and revenue about 15%. Considering Toronto is a much smaller city, we are doing not bad. But the difference is still rather big, and let's not be too obsessed with the unofficial "top three" title for now.

 

[kkgg7]

It's nice you point out Montreal/Quebec City to your international friends, but c'mon kkgg7, really. You sound like you're being held in Toronto against your will. Maybe we can start a collection on this site to get you out of this hellhole. Who says TO ain't got heart.

No, I was only saying Toronto is not an attractive top city for tourism. Where one decides to live has little to do whether the city is huge in tourism. Otherwise, Las Vagas would be a lot bigger.
Sometimes it amazes me how people just jump to purely illogical conclusions to prove others wrong.

Every time I have friends who pop the question of which Canadian city to move to, I tell them to come to Toronto almost 100% of the time. Never a single time did I suggest anyone to move to Vancouver/Montreal although IMO those two cities are prettier.

 

[Tulse]

I did some research and here is what I found

Thanks for the hard numbers, kkgg7 -- it's always best to have evidence, and it does look like that Toronto is at best a distant third from NY and London.

 

[coolcanadian]

about this, I did some research and here is what I found:

On the other hand, in toronto, according to Toronto Alliance for the Performing Arts

1)In the 2007/08 season over 2.4 million single and subscription tickets were sold by TAPA members.
2) Torontonians spent over $152 million on tickets at participating TAPA member companies during the 2007/08 season.
http://www.tapa.ca/communique/press/detail/41/?return=default

So our attendance is about 20% that of NYC/London, and revenue about 15%. Considering Toronto is a much smaller city, we are doing not bad. But the difference is still rather big, and let's not be too obsessed with the unofficial "top three" title for now.

Those stats are from 2007/08. A lot more has come since then. Look at how our city changes: compare the skyline from 2007 to now and there are some major differences.


The 2.5 million sq/ft Pinewood Studios development with the hotel and movie set/neighbourhood will be something only found in Toronto. Yes, LA has movie sets, but this will be a real neighbourhood. People in the hotel and condos will essentially be living in the set!

Look at my previous sport on page 16. We have a lot!

 

[TrickyRicky]

I've probably posted this in this or another thread before but I just don't really buy the whole command and control argument about advertising, promotion, strategic direction etc. I'm happy people want to forward such initiatives but really I think at best all you can get is short-term oscillations in visitor or tourist numbers.

The real issue and the real direction for Toronto is to incrementally improve all aspects of and activities in the city for the people who live here. When the strength of the organizations and experiences in the city are compelling people will come. The argument forwarded by many is akin to trying to be cool by wearing a funky hat. I'm not saying wearing a funky hat isn't going to get you laid but it's a far cry from creating a deep, meaningful, and sustainable impression.

P.S. comparisons are fun but I think they miss the point. There are 7 billion people on earth. We have no need to offer a directly competing experience vis a vis New York or Paris. All we need to do is incrementally improve the experience of the city for those who live here already. More people enjoy stamp collecting than visit New York in a year. You could generate a whole cottage industry around stamp collecting alone if you so desired. Who cares if New York is cooler and more amazing. You can't win the hearts of people who are already too cool for Toronto. But there are BILLIONS of people that live in places that are way less interesting than Toronto and for whatever reason have no interest in traveling to New York this year. In a way the strategic psychology on this thread is backwards. It's actually places like New York that have to fear competition from Toronto, not the other way around.

 

[ladyscraper]

What I find is that most tourists want to see something they are familiar with. They have no idea why things are good, they just know that they have heard of them so they want to see it. Why do people want to see Times Square and the Empire State Building? It's because they know them from movies. It's as simple as that for most people. Think about Times Square for a second - it is literally a bunch of lit up advertisements in a busy part of town. Why the hell would anyone want to go out of their way to see that? Not to mention the fact that similar things exist in many Asian cities. It is just because they know what it is from seeing it in various types of media.

If you made a bunch of really famous movies about Toronto, then people would suddenly want to see the OCAD building, the CN Tower and whatever else got featured. That would take years to change and may never change.

However, I think Toronto gets a large number of tourists considering the lack of media exposure. I agree with the comment earlier that Niagara Falls should be pushed as something to do in (and around) Toronto as a combination trip. The CN Tower is still a crowd pleaser after all these years as well. So I would say those are the best things to push right now until Toronto gets more media exposure worldwide.

 

[Tewder]

Toronto very much felt like a theatre destination back in mid 80s to mid 90s. The dollar exchange was low and everybody was cashing in. All over the States you could find package deals to Toronto to see big splashy shows and consequently the streets, hotels and restaurants were full of American tourists. Toronto casts and productions were getting lots of international exposure and respect. Unfortunately we know what happened with SARS and 9-11 and the declining US dollar. Toronto still has a very rich arts scene but it has lost a lot in terms of international profile and commercial viability.

 

[RC8]

Probably the single best thing Toronto could do to attract more tourists is to bury all electric lines, repave all downtown streets, build a DRL on Richmond or Adelaide, and make sidewalks beautiful and interesting.

Downtown Toronto is just as walkable as Montreal or Vancouver, but it doesn't feel like it to tourists because of the deteriorated streetscape.

New York has a terrible, terrible, terrible sidewalks for the most part, but its reputation as a walkable city carries it on. We can't afford that luxury and should be inviting more people to walk our streets and discover what's around. King West, St. Lawrence, and Yorkville all have a competent public realm, and they do very well for it.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I've probably posted this in this or another thread before but I just don't really buy the whole command and control argument about advertising, promotion, strategic direction etc...The real issue and the real direction for Toronto is to incrementally improve all aspects of and activities in the city for the people who live here. When the strength of the organizations and experiences in the city are compelling people will come.

I am inclined to believe this argument. Nevertheless, while Toronto's organizations (do you mean institutions?) and experiences get better every year, I don't think this will tilt us toward global attractiveness. The problem is that Toronto lacks a strong indigenous culture. I don't mean 'indigenous' in the sense of aborginal people, I mean indigenous in the sense of a unique ocal culture that is highly specific to our city and its history. Toronto doesn't have a dish, much less a metropolitan/regional cuisine; Toronto doesn't have a regional accent, let alone a regional dialect; Toronto cannot lay claim to giving birth to an internationally recognized musical style, artistic movement or literary culture. This is why a city like New Orleans, barely one fifth the size of Toronto, and declining, has an unmistakeable identity: it has its own Cajun cuisine, unique accent, and most people know the city as the birthplace of jazz.

So how could we create an indigenous culture? Just like ideas, cultures aren't started in a vacuum; they arise from a synthesis of several other cultures. Now Toronto has the ingredients for this: we are incredibly diverse along so many different cultural lines: ethnic, religious, value-systems, etc. What gives? It's like we're standing in the best equipped kitchen in the world, with all of the ingredients at our fingertips and we can't even make cereal. My personal opinion, as un-PC as it sounds, is that our culture of multiculturalism is largely to blame.

A city in a country that embraces multiculturalism, in an epoch that embraces globalization, will always have a tough go at carving out its own identity and culture. That's Toronto's conundrum. Say what you will about the American "melting pot", it has allowed cultural syncretism to take root giving birth to hybrids of several cultures that are conspicuously lacking in Toronto's supposedly diverse cultural landscape. For example, Japanese chefs in Los Angeles began substituting avocados so prevalent in Mexican cuisine for tuna, and, voila! The California Roll was born. Where is the fusion of Chinese and South Asian cuisine that Toronto should have happened by now? If Toronto could harness its diverse groups to create weird new hybrid cultures, I would totally travel halfway across the world to see that happen. That's how cultures are born.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I'm amused by the fact that this whole 'IMG we need more tourists and we're doing a terrible job at attracting them' meme got started by a post that 2011 was a fabulous year for Toronto tourism. Maybe all we need to do to attract more tourists is to lighten up a little, already.

From a live theatre perspective, RIDICULOUSLY good few weeks happening right now. Mrs. RRR and I caught the Tarragon's 'Golden Dragon' and it was really great -- although, as with a lot of good theatre, it took us a couple of days of discussion to decide that. NatPost critic had a pithy line: maybe not a new golden era, but definitely a golden two weeks!

 

[Roots_Energize]

I think there is a few issues at hand here, 1. We need to stop caring what other cities or places think of us, stop looking for acceptance, " are we coool now? are we are we?" forget all that, build confidence self esteem and just do what we think is cool, master our craft, blow peoples minds, just let loose an take down the barriers, get real creative with it, you need to feel it in your soul. Once its in your soul you let it out with whatever you enjoy , like cooking, music, art, architecture, dance, free your mind and creativity will follow, write outside the margins, dont just think outside the box be so far outside the box that the box looks like a black dot. Now im not talking about screaming and jumping up and down with a neon hat saying look at me, im just talking about inventing things that warm the heart.

2. Lead by example, do it yourself

3. Hire more artist to create things in our city such as street furniture, light posts, garbage cans that are unique to an area of the city.

 

[kkgg7]

Toronto very much felt like a theatre destination back in mid 80s to mid 90s. The dollar exchange was low and everybody was cashing in. All over the States you could find package deals to Toronto to see big splashy shows and consequently the streets, hotels and restaurants were full of American tourists. Toronto casts and productions were getting lots of international exposure and respect. Unfortunately we know what happened with SARS and 9-11 and the declining US dollar. Toronto still has a very rich arts scene but it has lost a lot in terms of international profile and commercial viability.

the sad thing is Toronto for 95% of the time has been masquerading as an American city in those films. Toronto seldom was Toronto in them and CN tower has to be carefully avoided all the time.

 

[kkgg7]

What I find is that most tourists want to see something they are familiar with. They have no idea why things are good, they just know that they have heard of them so they want to see it. Why do people want to see Times Square and the Empire State Building? It's because they know them from movies. It's as simple as that for most people. Think about Times Square for a second - it is literally a bunch of lit up advertisements in a busy part of town. Why the hell would anyone want to go out of their way to see that? Not to mention the fact that similar things exist in many Asian cities. It is just because they know what it is from seeing it in various types of media.

If you made a bunch of really famous movies about Toronto, then people would suddenly want to see the OCAD building, the CN Tower and whatever else got featured. That would take years to change and may never change.

However, I think Toronto gets a large number of tourists considering the lack of media exposure. I agree with the comment earlier that Niagara Falls should be pushed as something to do in (and around) Toronto as a combination trip. The CN Tower is still a crowd pleaser after all these years as well. So I would say those are the best things to push right now until Toronto gets more media exposure worldwide.

That I agree 100%. Often travellers are not rational. They want to see stuff often shown on TV, just for the heck of it. A case in point is the Hollywood sign in LA. When I lived in LA, everyone who visits insists seeing that sign, when actually it is just some letters on the mountain and there is absolutely nothing special about it. Time Square is another good example.

I think Toronto did a poor job in promoting itself. In most movies shot here, we pretend to be an US city, let it be NYC or Chicago. It sucks! You know what, Miami got a lot of attention since the broadcasting of "CSI-Miami", and Toronto should do something and show itself as nothing but Toronto.

I was watching "flashpoint" and got really excited about Toronto's cool skyline constantly being show on the screen. There are many cool things about this city, and Canadians should really have more courage to show them. If I ask a random friend from Asia about Toronto, he or she probably only know about CN Tower if anything at all, while everyone knows all those famous but cliche tourist "must-go" in American cities. what a shame.

 

[Lenser]

the sad thing is Toronto for 95% of the time has been masquerading as an American city in those films. Toronto seldom was Toronto in them and CN tower has to be carefully avoided all the time.

In the old days this was true. More and more, however, TV series show Toronto as Toronto... not some generic North American city. It's about time. King, Flashpoint, Degrassi (and the Bridge, from a couple of years ago) all are unabashedly Torontonian in their locations. That's a good deal better than the situation from even half a decade ago.