nfitz said:
The taxi is $53 to downtown according to Pearson Airport website - http://www.torontopearson.com/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=1431 Doesn't include fuel surcharge or tip. Train would be cheaper for 2 at that rate.
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A taxi driver will carry your bags and drop you off at your door. The train will dump me at Union Station where I would then have to haul my baggage onto the TTC. Train needs to be significantly cheaper to attract anyone who doesn't live or is staying next to Union Station.

Plus, if you live west of Bathurst, it's only $47 at which point a taxi becomes actually cheaper.
 
canmark said:
Union Pearson Express a money loser?
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Which is fine if it is planned as a transit system. No single transportation infrastructure project in Toronto makes money (except the 407). I've long suspected that the market is too weak for a ultra-premium-priced rail link, but something similar to GO's fare structure and operating subsidy would be feasible.
 
ShonTron said:
Which is fine if it is planned as a transit system. No single transportation infrastructure project in Toronto makes money (except the 407). I've long suspected that the market is too weak for a ultra-premium-priced rail link, but something similar to GO's fare structure and operating subsidy would be feasible.
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Agreed. I see it as an investment that will improve Toronto's reputation around the world, thus making it more attractive. The status quo is just unacceptable.
 
I would like to see a POLL done by UTers to see if they think it makes sense adding stations to this line and running it more or less like a TTC line...
I know this link is OLD news but with the daily pressure for new transit for Toronto residents and the constant articles about how the current proposal is a major money loser does it effect peoples ideas on the line.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ink-connecting-union-station-to-the-airlport/
 
sixrings said:
I would like to see a POLL done by UTers to see if they think it makes sense adding stations to this line and running it more or less like a TTC line...
I know this link is OLD news but with the daily pressure for new transit for Toronto residents and the constant articles about how the current proposal is a major money loser does it effect peoples ideas on the line.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...ink-connecting-union-station-to-the-airlport/
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It's a bit of a no-brainer. You would get a rapid transit link to the airport and the western leg of the DRL all in one package, and it would be way more affordable than new subway construction. Good luck getting Metrolinx to budge though.
 
Yeah. With Metrolinx diving into overdesigned stations, wifi in the waiting area, and all the rest, we will be stuck with this white elephant for a long time. The Auditor General's report is really slamming them. Like:

- The breakeven fare is at least $28 even if ridership projections are right.
- "Although the projected capture rate ... is comparable to that of other North American airport rail services, their one-way ticket prices range from only
$1.60 to $13.00... We believe that the ARL’s high fare will negatively affect the projected ridership capture rate."
- Metrolinx's own market research shows that very few will take ARL at prices over $22.50.
- Even though design and construction is well underway for the premium service model, Metrolinx has not yet developed a business plan or agreed on pricing with the province.

Major clusterf**k. If McGuinty had not closed up the Legislature for the year, I think this could turn into a real political scandal.
 
I don't think that the design of the stations has anything to do with the economics of operating the line, unless the stations are costly to maintain. Better designed stations might require less maintenance or no renovations for a longer period of time. They're attractive in the renderings, and they don't look like they'll pose maintenance problems.
 
junctionist said:
I don't think that the design of the stations has anything to do with the economics of operating the line, unless the stations are costly to maintain. Better designed stations might require less maintenance or no renovations for a longer period of time. They're attractive in the renderings, and they don't look like they'll pose maintenance problems.
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The only station that might be overdesigned is the fancy waiting area at Union Station/SkyWalk but that's built over there partly so it doesn't take track capacity away from the other operations at Union. It does make it a longer walk from the subway and VIA trains, though not that far from other GO Trains especially when the second York Street GO concourse is opened.

The Bloor Station is hardly overdesigned, ditto Weston.
 
Was just looking at the fares for the Heathrow Express in London. It's £19 one-way (£18 if purchased online; discounts for children; more for First Class), which is about $30 Canadian. So, a $28 fare from Pearson to Union is not unreasonable (in comparison) for business people or single travellers. Groups and families might find it cheaper to take a taxi or limo or bus.

The Heathrow Express runs every 15 minutes, the ride is only 15-20 minutes (depending from which terminal you board), but it only takes you to Paddington Station (west side of central London). When I took it a few year ago on a visit to London, I still had to take the subway from there to get to my hotel. Heathrow is also served by subway.
 
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canmark said:
Was just looking at the fares for the Heathrow Express in London. It's £19 one-way (£18 if purchased online; discounts for children; more for First Class), which is about $30 Canadian. So, a $28 fare from Pearson to Union is not unreasonable (in comparison) for business people or single travellers. Groups and families might find it cheaper to take a taxi or limo or bus.

The Heathrow Express runs every 15 minutes, the ride is only 15-20 minutes (depending from which terminal you board), but it only takes you to Paddington Station (west side of central London). When I took it a few year ago on a visit to London, I still had to take the subway from there to get to my hotel. Heathrow is also served by subway.
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I think that is the most comparable example and that the issue here is not about the system itself but the order of implementation. When HE was introduced there already was a subway at Heathrow so the "economical, public transit" option was already in place. At the time HE was being built, I was in and out of there once a month and there was a real sense of excitement that there would be an express option coming....even if it was at a much higher fare. I think we just got the order a bit off here........if there was a LRT line into the airport and full day GO service through a connected Malton station (each offering different levels of service at different prices) the addition of premium/quicker/more expensive system would be seen as a good thing.....as it sits now, it is the only thing (outside of buses and cabs) and it looks a bit "off".
 
Downtown Toronto/YYZ Air Link with comparison to both London and Philadelphia...

canmark said:
Was just looking at the fares for the Heathrow Express in London. It's £19 one-way (£18 if purchased online; discounts for children; more for First Class), which is about $30 Canadian. So, a $28 fare from Pearson to Union is not unreasonable (in comparison) for business people or single travellers. Groups and families might find it cheaper to take a taxi or limo or bus.

The Heathrow Express runs every 15 minutes, the ride is only 15-20 minutes (depending from which terminal you board), but it only takes you to Paddington Station (west side of central London). When I took it a few year ago on a visit to London, I still had to take the subway from there to get to my hotel. Heathrow is also served by subway.
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Canmark and Everyone: Interesting link about London's Heathrow Airport Express...

I wanted to make note and include information on Philadelphia's Airport Regional Rail Line operated by SEPTA...

It is about ten miles from Center City Philadelphia to PHL International Airport...

They charge a somewhat high cash fare for the distance but they also honor all of SEPTA's passes
that are valid on the City Transit Division as well as any Regional Rail zoned Trailpass...

They also sell a $11 Independence Day Pass for individuals that are valid on this line also...

See: www.septa.org/welcome/airport.html for more Airport Rail Line information...

I want to ask if anyone knows or if it has been mentioned what this line's distance between
Pearson International Airport and Union Station...

If Metrolinx and GO Transit Rail set up fares something like what Philadelphia's Airport Line
has they would probably charge a one way cash fare of perhaps $10 one way and have
fares to all GO Transit Rail points via Union Station/Downtown Toronto...

As for a comparison with honored SEPTA passes this line could honor as example TTC Monthly
and Weekly Passes between Union and YYZ and also all GO Transit Presto cards...I noticed from
looking at GO's site recently that they will no longer sell Monthly passes beginning in January 2013...
This would be more for YYZ workers that commute than for travelers...

What I feel that should be done here is balance the needs of airline travelers with YYZ workers
to come up with affordable fares instead of perhaps going after a high price market and perhaps
pricing out regular commuters...SEPTA's Airport Regional Rail Line balances this well in my opinion...

In closing I am all for Toronto's YYZ Airport Rail Line to be a success right from the start...

LI MIKE
 
canmark said:
Was just looking at the fares for the Heathrow Express in London. It's £19 one-way (£18 if purchased online; discounts for children; more for First Class), which is about $30 Canadian. So, a $28 fare from Pearson to Union is not unreasonable (in comparison) for business people or single travellers. Groups and families might find it cheaper to take a taxi or limo or bus.

The Heathrow Express runs every 15 minutes, the ride is only 15-20 minutes (depending from which terminal you board), but it only takes you to Paddington Station (west side of central London). When I took it a few year ago on a visit to London, I still had to take the subway from there to get to my hotel. Heathrow is also served by subway.
Click to expand...

A taxi to central London is about 60 pounds. A taxi from Pearson to downtown Toronto is about $50. So if ARL wanted the same relative price as in London the fare would be about $16.
 
The best comparison of the UP Link will be the Denver Airport Link.

Toronto's is currently under construction as is Denver's with completion dates of 2015 and 2016 respectively. Both will use some current corridors and new infrastructure of rail and stations but much more so in Denver. Both will run directly between their international airports and their Union station both of which are under large expansions as major transportation hubs. Both airports are of similar passenger size. Both lines will run commuter rail type trains with all the extra bells and whistles and frequency will be exactly the same at 15 minute headways all day long. The similarities are extradinary but this is where they end.

The UP Link will be 23 km from Union while the Denver line will be 23 MILES. The entire Denver line will be electrified and have more station but relatively when looking at the longer length of Denver they will be compatible. The Denver Commuter rail is taking over from it's current Skybus express and will have the exact same fares as the bus..........$11 ticket but any amount paid to get to the station using Denver's RTD will be automatically deducted from the fare. A base one fare ride on RTD is $2.25 so your fare would be $8.75 for the full distance, less so if you are stopping in one of the stations along the route or get on the train closer to the airport. A Skybus fare will get you to any destination within the entire Metro area with an extra $2 getting you across Metro and all the way to Boulder.......50 km. Needless to say if you have a regular RTD pass and/or buy Skybus tickets the fares are even lower. A significant amount of the upfront costs are being born by a PPP but it is RTD which sets all fares and potential fare increases in the future not the private partner much like the Canada Line.

The Denver commuter rail is cleaner, quieter, just as frequent, a much longer route, but will be just slightly more than a third the price of a UP Link $ TTC ticket. Denver is building a transit line for it's citizens and Toronto is building a business line for the well healed who can use it as a tax right-off regardless of the fact that the line is being built by the taxpayers of Ontario and any subsidy required to keep it running for the patricians will be born by current GO riders and Metrolinx.

These lines are incredibly similar in their function, time, connections, construction, vehicles, service levels but Denver's is a public transit line and Toronto's a luxury liner that will puke out smoke onto the long suffering Toronto transit users waiting in the rain for another packed bus and all because their income level isn't high enough to pay the fare on the line that they paid for.

If this isn't enough to make any Toronto transit rider both sick and furious I don't know what is.
 
Any word on the fare if you start the trip or end it at Bloor or Weston? Would be pretty silly to pay $25 from Weston the the Airport.
 
ssiguy2 said:
The best comparison of the UP Link will be the Denver Airport Link.

Toronto's is currently under construction as is Denver's with completion dates of 2015 and 2016 respectively. Both will use some current corridors and new infrastructure of rail and stations but much more so in Denver. Both will run directly between their international airports and their Union station both of which are under large expansions as major transportation hubs. Both airports are of similar passenger size. Both lines will run commuter rail type trains with all the extra bells and whistles and frequency will be exactly the same at 15 minute headways all day long. The similarities are extradinary but this is where they end.

The UP Link will be 23 km from Union while the Denver line will be 23 MILES. The entire Denver line will be electrified and have more station but relatively when looking at the longer length of Denver they will be compatible. The Denver Commuter rail is taking over from it's current Skybus express and will have the exact same fares as the bus..........$11 ticket but any amount paid to get to the station using Denver's RTD will be automatically deducted from the fare. A base one fare ride on RTD is $2.25 so your fare would be $8.75 for the full distance, less so if you are stopping in one of the stations along the route or get on the train closer to the airport. A Skybus fare will get you to any destination within the entire Metro area with an extra $2 getting you across Metro and all the way to Boulder.......50 km. Needless to say if you have a regular RTD pass and/or buy Skybus tickets the fares are even lower. A significant amount of the upfront costs are being born by a PPP but it is RTD which sets all fares and potential fare increases in the future not the private partner much like the Canada Line.

The Denver commuter rail is cleaner, quieter, just as frequent, a much longer route, but will be just slightly more than a third the price of a UP Link $ TTC ticket. Denver is building a transit line for it's citizens and Toronto is building a business line for the well healed who can use it as a tax right-off regardless of the fact that the line is being built by the taxpayers of Ontario and any subsidy required to keep it running for the patricians will be born by current GO riders and Metrolinx.

These lines are incredibly similar in their function, time, connections, construction, vehicles, service levels but Denver's is a public transit line and Toronto's a luxury liner that will puke out smoke onto the long suffering Toronto transit users waiting in the rain for another packed bus and all because their income level isn't high enough to pay the fare on the line that they paid for.

If this isn't enough to make any Toronto transit rider both sick and furious I don't know what is.
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The interesting thing about the Denver line is that it must be working on some "different" cost recovery model. My understanding is that this line is happening mainly because of a $1B federal government grant and even that does not cover all the cost (presumably the private sector partner/operator is putting some cash on the table). So a cost of something over a billion and that does not even include the cost of the station at the airport (that is being built as part of the $1/2 billion terminal south project that includes the station, hotel and convention centre).

Maybe we have gotten too used to expecting our transit lines to cover too much of their own cost and that is why we have trouble building anything.
 
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