Solid Snake
Active Member
and we thought Sheppard's numbers were crazy but their report is even less realistic. Noticed that on their map they are already dreaming of a future extension north of Richmond Hill
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Markster
Senior Member
Prudent planning is now dreaming?
There's no reason to pretend that RHC is the last stop for the Yonge subway. Eglinton wasn't, and Finch won't be. It might not happen for 100 years, but I don't see that as a reason not to at least consider the ramifications.
Perhaps if the Kennedy and Downsview extensions had properly considered where their respective extensions would go, they wouldn't have been built pointing the wrong directions.
nfitz
Superstar
Only 4,800? Are you sure? It's 8,800 in the Big Move for 2031. Still high, but not as high. Big Move seems to have 1,200 at the peak hour moving the opposite direction.
You always should have some kind of plan where the line might be going, so you don't foul it up by accident. Though if those numbers that are forecast hold water, then they probably should add another station further north at 16th Avenue to distribute out the passengers somewhat. Though perhaps Highway 7 is the perfect jumping-off spot to put a Yonge LRT that would head north to ... well it's only 25 km to Newmarket.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
It's worth noting that growth in the south region (particularly Markham) has been ahead of the Places to Grow population projections and the secondary plan for Langstaff is now approved (Richmond Hill's OP is at the OMB).
I can't speak to any specifics of their methodology but it's not surprising that the longer we go without building this thing, the higher the projections are going to go. (And the 2031 projections would include traffic coming in from the 407 Transitway, not just the Yonge corridor. IIRC, they had more than 80% of riders getting off at Yonge to get on the train).
And I wholeheartedly agree with those who say there's absolutely zero wrong with drawing a little pencil line on the map that says, "maybe one day it can go up to here." It's a heck of a lot smarter than the past 20 years in Toronto where they figure out where they want the subway to go, erase the last few kilomtetres and then build (or, more recently, advocate building one stop at a time).
I'm gonna throw out a crazy idea but after 50 years of sprawl maybe we should APPLAUD the suburbs for not only planning for the future but also for trying to ensure high-order transit is in both the infill and greenfield areas in which they want to intensify?
Or we could bitch more about the DRL, subways to "nowhere" etc....whatever.
I can't speak to any specifics of their methodology but it's not surprising that the longer we go without building this thing, the higher the projections are going to go. (And the 2031 projections would include traffic coming in from the 407 Transitway, not just the Yonge corridor. IIRC, they had more than 80% of riders getting off at Yonge to get on the train).
And I wholeheartedly agree with those who say there's absolutely zero wrong with drawing a little pencil line on the map that says, "maybe one day it can go up to here." It's a heck of a lot smarter than the past 20 years in Toronto where they figure out where they want the subway to go, erase the last few kilomtetres and then build (or, more recently, advocate building one stop at a time).
I'm gonna throw out a crazy idea but after 50 years of sprawl maybe we should APPLAUD the suburbs for not only planning for the future but also for trying to ensure high-order transit is in both the infill and greenfield areas in which they want to intensify?
Or we could bitch more about the DRL, subways to "nowhere" etc....whatever.
rbt
Senior Member
Agreed. It is completely appropriate to set aside the space required for stations at major intersections and foundation setbacks to allow tunneling.
The A train in New York runs a distance equivalent from Yonge & Queens Quay to Yonge & Davie in Newmarket.
A few setbacks on the virtual map today for station boxes, etc. could make it significantly easier to build the Newmarket extension of the Yonge line in 2080.
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k10ery
Senior Member
How about we ask the suburbs to plan responsibly for a decade or two, and THEN we give them a subway? Seems like a nice alternative to using tax dollars to fulfill another suburban politician's pipe dream, and to hand millions of dollars in windfall profits to private developers.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
And how does that work?
They make greenfield development illegal? They force tens of thousands of people into high-rise development and effectively force them to own cars to get around?
Developers are happy to build detached 50' lots til the cows come home. They won't built condos in the burbs unless the market is there and there won't be a market without infrastructure. The "surburbs" aren't what you think they are and there is a direct correlation between sprawl, traffic and transit. More to the point, transit (and the Yonge subway extension in particular) is not a pipe dream. It's a real project with a complete EA.
I think the GTA has lagged behind in this area for so long that people have forgotten about pro-active planning but these surburbs you demand prove themselves are attempting to engage in city building while you try to tie their hands. You don't hand transit out as a REWARD for good planning, it's a necessary condition OF good planning. What you're asking is like insisting they prove they can conserve water before we give them plumbing, really.
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nfitz
Superstar
It does, but like the YUS, it starts outside of downtown, runs through downtown, and heads back out again. At 50 km long, it's not that much longer than the YUS will be (45 km) once the Spadina and Yonge to Highway 7 extensions are completed. I don't think any New York subway line runs 48 km straight out of downtown.
But they've always seemed to have seen their political boundaries as more of a division than we have. I'm always surprised that none of the subway lines run into Yonkers, Mount Vernon, and Pelham. And the relatively short subway lines (PATH) to New Jersey are run by a completely different agency with no fare integration.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
Metro-North is much more efficient at serving those areas, but your point is well taken.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Perhaps; but in case of the Yonge North extension, it would be very hard to build the RHC station pointing the wrong direction.
k10ery
Senior Member
Developers build whatever they can get away with of course. The responsibility for the built form lies entirely with the politicians and us who vote for them, (or don't vote). I'm not saying transit is a reward. I'm saying build it where there is at least some evidence that is warranted. This "build it and they will come [and build condos]" stuff is ridiculous. It simply hasn't worked.
nfitz
Superstar
Last time I looked at doing this from Fordham, the trains were only once an hour (it was a Sunday ... but looks like it's still only 2 an hour on a weekday). Good grief, and the fare is $7.50! Only $2.50 on subway.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
I understand what you're saying but the politicians (at least in York Region, where I live) seem to be trying to make it work. There's a noticable uptick in multi-unit construction in the past few years and the reason they asked for (and got) $2.4 billion for Viva (not to mention the Spadina extension) is because that transit directly facilitates intensification, particularly on greenfield sites.
But they can only go so far, particularly on Yonge, without the subway. The "build it and they will come" is working - the World on Yonge is already underway and, as I said above, 2ndary plan for Langstaff is complete. There's another smaller-scale Minto condo underway at Yonge/Arnold too. Markham Centre is going full-steam ahead and 30-storey-plus condo towers are already approved in Vaughan Metro Centre. Those developers will be happy to be ahead of the curve but you're going to hit a brick wall (not to mention gridlock) if you leave the subway dangling out there, 2 km away from where it should be.
Yes, it's stupid to build a subway to "nowhere" but Yonge/7 hasn't been nowhere for 20 years and if politicians etc. don't put their money where the mouth is, you definitely don't get the condos and the cycle of the past 50 years will repeat itself.
xtremesniper
Active Member
Well said. All of it.
We need to stop bitching around and get building. The more we wait, the harder and more expensive it's going to be, and then we'll only end up making pathetic cuts because we didn't have the foresight to plan ahead to actually budget a proper system out. That's what we have now. We didn't plan ahead and now we're just scraping for cash to build pointless projects and bicker about LRTs vs subways when in reality if we had a proper plan, we would have had subways and the cash to do it.
Politicians are clueless. It's time intellectuals took over.
Tulse
Senior Member
The problem isn't the politicians per se, but the electorate. And there's no way for the "intellectuals" to "take over" without convincing voters.